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Posted by: The Red Clay Experience© Jan 21 2004, 07:03 PM

Nope and nope. Well, I guess that about clears it up for me.

Posted by: Pico Jan 21 2004, 07:11 PM

Don't know what to tell ya, Darnita. I hope you find a woman who has your best interests in mind.....and likewise. *gallops off into the digitized NC sunset on a Donkey(.com)*

Posted by: Highly_Insane Jan 21 2004, 07:23 PM

YOU LITTLE RED HEADED APPLE FACE LITTLE PIPSQUEAK BANNANA HEAD TURKEY LEGGED HEFFA........HMPH... BTW, I HOPE YOU FIND A NICE GENTLEMAN TO SATISFY YOUR NEEDS.

Posted by: ooak69 Jan 21 2004, 08:16 PM

Nope. To me there is nothing more sick than gay marrage. It totally strays away from the way God put marriage to be, Man for woman, woman for man. Think about it, can a man and a man make a baby, no can a woman and another woman make babies, no The only right way for the human race to reproduce is through a man and a woman, and they should be married. I dont mine telling anyone that it is disgusting, immoral, and not the way God intended for a relationship to be.

Posted by: *Mikka* Jan 21 2004, 08:25 PM

QUOTE (ooak69 @ Jan 21 2004, 08:16 PM) Nope. To me there is nothing more sick than gay marrage. It totally strays away from the way God put marriage to be, Man for woman, woman for man. Think about it, can a man and a man make a baby, no can a woman and another woman make babies, no The only right way for the human race to reproduce is through a man and a woman, and they should be married. I dont mine telling anyone that it is disgusting, immoral, and not the way God intended for a relationship to be. What about those people that don't want kids? You'd tell them that something sacred to them is disgusting? I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to be in a Homosexual relationship yourself, but I do see something wrong with taking away someone else's right to do so if that is what they want. How would you like it if someone suddenly decided that marching bands were disgusting and that there should be a law banning people from forming large groups of instrumentalists for any purpose other than concert band, and they said something stupid like "God made instruments just for concert bands, and the whole idea of a marching band is barbaric and a waste of time?" You wouldn't like it, because that would be an instance of someone revelling in their own ignorance, and in the process taking away something that you hold dear to your heart. If they are in fact wrong according to God, then they will have to worry about it, but I don't think it is for anyone here on Earth to judge what they do. God also said "love thy neighbor" which, to me, includes accepting their way of life. You don't have to like what they are doing behind closed doors, or in some cases in public, but they do have the right to love and be with whichever human, be it same sex or not, that they wish.

Posted by: The Red Clay Experience© Jan 21 2004, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (*Mikka* @ Jan 21 2004, 09:16 PM) QUOTE (The Red Clay Experience© @ Jan 21 2004, 09:12 PM) If I go to your house and chop off the heads of your entire family because it makes me "happy" that make it okay right? Everything that makes you happy isn't right. Like ol dirty stated, the Bible clearly states God's stance on homosexuality. If you're not a believer that's between you and HIM. If you disagree then that's between you and HIM. I would like someone to post the scripture where God CLEARLY says that homosexuality is wrong. And Red Clay, who are WE to determine what is right or wrong? I had an argument with Ken about this once, the whole "no sin is greater than the other" thing. And he said that killing a bug is a sin because you are killing a living breathing thing, so in some people's eyes it is wrong to kill bugs. Then there are the animals we kill for food, there are people out there that believe that is wrong, but we continue to do it. This is just another case of man trying to judge man. Mikka, I didn't wake up one day and decide that "Being gay is wrong". I didn't just decide on my own accord that homosexuality is wrong. The problem I see is with people who have their own little interpretations with NO study of the Bible. I see a whole lot of people looking like they are just "taking people's word for it" and not getting the information for themselves. Don't fret though. Scripture is on the way.

Posted by: The Red Clay Experience© Jan 21 2004, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Highly_Insane @ Jan 21 2004, 09:20 PM) I know Bionic has the scripture but this is my piece...I know people are going to try to eat up my words and spi thiem in my face but hey thats why it is called a DEBATE...... Things are going downhill fast for your debate by this quote alone. smh.

Posted by: Highly_Insane Jan 21 2004, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (The Red Clay Experience© @ Jan 21 2004, 10:24 PM) QUOTE (Highly_Insane @ Jan 21 2004, 09:20 PM) I know Bionic has the scripture but this is my piece...I know people are going to try to eat up my words and spi thiem in my face but hey thats why it is called a DEBATE...... Things are going downhill fast for your debate by this quote alone. smh. Mr. Curt you i didn't mean it like that.....i was saying that folks are going to try to tear it down....u get it...but i aint gonna let that happen.

Posted by: The Red Clay Experience© Jan 21 2004, 09:31 PM

In closing. I'm not judging anyone. I just agree with what the book says. Goodnight.

Posted by: highstepper83 Jan 21 2004, 09:36 PM

Okay, I'm glad to see some people on here that are standing up for what's right! You people that is for gay marriges and so forth, yall know it is strictly WRONG! Morally WRONG! Man for Woman and Woman For Man! Dawg, this is some and !!! What in the H3LL is the world coming to ? Are people being "brainwashed" by the Devil himself or has everone jus gone completly bonkers?

Posted by: ooak69 Jan 21 2004, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (highstepper83 @ Jan 21 2004, 10:36 PM) Okay, I'm glad to see some people on here that are standing up for what's right! You people that is for gay marriges and so forth, yall know it is strictly WRONG! Morally WRONG! Man for Woman and Woman For Man! Dawg, this is some and !!! What in the H3LL is the world coming to ? Are people being "brainwashed" by the Devil himself or has everone jus gone completly bonkers? Thats right.

Posted by: *Mikka* Jan 21 2004, 09:41 PM

yeah, the devil is really sitting here typing this not a real live person with opinions If you're gonna come in here, come with something intelligent. And ooak69, I once again have to disagree with you about the abortion thing. But hey, you're right that is another post.

Posted by: highstepper83 Jan 21 2004, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (*Mikka* @ Jan 21 2004, 10:41 PM) yeah, the devil is really sitting here typing this not a real live person with opinions If you're gonna come in here, come with something intelligent. And ooak69, I once again have to disagree with you about the abortion thing. But hey, you're right that is another post. Y u being such a SMART A$$ now? You know that we r right about what we saying!

Posted by: *Mikka* Jan 21 2004, 09:49 PM

QUOTE (highstepper83 @ Jan 21 2004, 09:45 PM) QUOTE (*Mikka* @ Jan 21 2004, 10:41 PM) yeah, the devil is really sitting here typing this not a real live person with opinions If you're gonna come in here, come with something intelligent. And ooak69, I once again have to disagree with you about the abortion thing. But hey, you're right that is another post. Y u being such a SMART A$$ now? You know that we r right about what we saying! I'm always a "SMART A$$" you just don't know me like that. Your opinion is your opinion and my opinion is mine. I may not agree with it, but I will agree with your right to say it, and all that good stuff. But it appears to me that you all are not even listening to what I am saying, you're taking the attitude that you are just automatically right cause it's in the Bible, and I have to disagree because like I said, there are lots of rules in the Bible that people don't follow, yet and still no one is on here raising hell about THOSE.

Posted by: *Mikka* Jan 21 2004, 10:16 PM

I can see what you are saying, I just hope that you are mindful of that thin line between teaching and forcing your ideals on someone. Anyway, we might as well agree to disagree, no point in dragging it on any longer, but it was lots of fun debating

Posted by: TheBionicSIGMA Jan 21 2004, 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Highly_Insane @ Jan 21 2004, 09:20 PM) Hmph@ that right there is why i oppose the Death Penalty....all those talking God said this and God said that....God also said dont kill. But what does man do, think it is in their power to give some body the Death Penalty....and God clearly states THOU SHALT NO KILL, and LEAVE THE JUDGEMENT UP TO ME (something like that) I know Bionic has the scripture but this is my piece...I know people are going to try to eat up my words and spi thiem in my face but hey thats why it is called a DEBATE...... I actually skipped past this topic several times and clicked it out of sheer boredom tonight. *warning - this one's a LITTLE long, but read on...* Nevertheless......Three major points and short commentary: #1 on homosexual marriage: QUOTE I'm glad he's finally put his support behind a constitutional amendment.  It's not like it would exclusively come through him, anyway - 2/3 of the states have to ratify a constitutional amendment and I guarandamtee you that the majority of the country would support that.  Even Clinton - Mr. Gay-Friendly, signed the 96 DOM Act which defines marriage as a man and woman. As for 'how it's different from women's rights' - homosexuality is a choice, not an 'orientation'.   No one's born gay - people choose.  There's a difference between fundamental rights for people and SPECIAL RIGHTS for people who choose a particular lifestyle.  Marriage has ALWAYS been a union between a man and a woman - period.   Historically, when the marriage and family unit have been re-defined, diminished or abolished, civilizations fall apart. 37 states have DOMA laws in place:         Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada ,North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia 13 don't or haven't fully protected marriage: Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts  , New Jersey , New Mexico , New York, New Hampshire, Ohio , Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Wisconsin , Wyoming No court or scientific research has ever concluded that homosexuality is rooted in nature or unchangeable.   It's a choice.  And if there can't be special rules that allow cleptomaniacs to continue stealing without penalty, there shouldn't be rules to allow people to redefine marriage as they please. Dobson and company argue a lot better than I do, though. http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/faqs/a0026916.cfm Dobson covers other points you ticked off on above and counters them with facts on the remainder of his site. If you're interested in truth and not simply holding a particular viewpoint for the sake of holding it, read. Al Mohler also has a very brief commentary on the issue: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/mohler/?cal=go&adate=1%2F15%2F2004. Dr. Mohler is the president of South Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY, conference speaker, author and actually a pretty cool guy (some people I know met him at a conference a while back). #2 - on the death penalty: QUOTE http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZPBSTimesBIGPHATLIST/message/553 (from June 30, 2000 -members only, but I own the list so I can post whatever I want....) I wrote: > In a message dated 6/25/2000 10:53:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kerry@zpbstimes.org writes: > > << No, actually it says 'you will not MURDER', not 'KILL'. In the Hebrew, > there > are TWO separate words used for MURDER and KILL. Any modern translation > (i.e.- NKJV, NIV, NASB) will make the differentiation for you. All > intepretations need to be based on the original language of scripture, not > an ENGLISH translation. > > Kerry >>> Logic wrote back: > ....and this information changes what Kerry? The bottom line message is still > the same! No one is supposed to take a human life! So this information > serves what purpose Kerry?? I still don't need it, don't want it and y'all > can all have his wrath!! As far as I am concerned, nohing in my original > message has changed Well, since words DO have meanings to them, it would be helpful to check a Hebrew Bible (Herbracia Stuttgartensia is the standard Masoretic text used for OT translations) and a Hebrew Lexicon. You'll find that the Hebrew word used for kill at Exodus 20:13 - ratsach - carries the definition of kill, assassinate, murder, premeditated murder, etc..... while the hebrew word for 'put to death' - muwth - used at Exodus 21:12, describes penal death (capital punishment). There is a difference. One is with malicious intent, unjustly, one is a penalty brought on by disobedience to the law. See, in this thing call the dictionary, words actually do mean different things and can be used different ways- so to dismiss such a differentiation, or muddle the definitons shows that you really don't believe the book that you were quoting from- you really believe YOURSELF. If you're gonna quote scripture, quote it correctly please. and from message 576 a few days later...... ALL interpretations of scripture must be grounded (based upon) the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE that scripture was written in. For the Old Testament, we have Hebrew and Aramaic. For the New Testament, we have koine (common) greek. Therefore, any INTERPRETATION of ANY scripture needs to be checked against the original language it was translated from. You can scream english, english, english all you want, but if scripture was originally written in another language, that's the language that you need to base your interpretation off of. Period (and you don't even have to go to seminary or bible college to realize that!). In addition- the 'Mosaic law' is the academic name given to the 613 commandments -not just the first 10- in the Old Testament that God gave Moses (hence the term MOSAIC) to govern Israel. They covered civil aspects (pertaining to specific situations in Israel), ceremonial aspects (temple sacrifices, fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice) and moral law (which still is applicable to everyone). It is SCRIPTURE Or rather, a specific set of scriptures. How about doing some actual research before ridiculing something you have no knowledge of and making yourself REALLY look intellectually inert? While a KJV is the good translation (and I'd recommend using it if you didn't have anything else), the New King James is a lot better. Old Archaic words have been replaced, incorrect translations have been fixed and it's more understandable. I *like* the NIV (New International Version), but wouldn't recommend it for study (that's a whole other issue). Logic then wrote: > KiZZY > This all started from Kerry's implied ((unspoken)) statement that it is > ok to take a human life in response to disobedience of the law. My position > is simple: THOU SHALT NOT KILL! nothing more, nothing less. Not Thou shalt > not kill except in certain circumstances... Actually it says 'you will not commit murder' Get a modern translation. But for the sake of arguments, let's assume you were right and that you unilaterally accepted everything scripture had to say. Do you also accept: Gen. 9:5-6 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. 6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Exodus 21:14-17 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death. 15 "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death. 16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. 17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. Lev. 20:10-16 "`If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbour--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 11 "`If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonoured his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 "`If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. 13 "`If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 "`If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. 15 "`If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. 16 "`If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Deut. 13:1-10 1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no-one among you will do such an evil thing again. These scriptures, contrary to your opinion, DO explicitly say that capital punishment is acceptable and is to be instituted for certain crimes (this is an NIV- you can go check them in a KJV and they'll say the same thing). What I've been trying to tell you for the longest while is to read ALL of scripture, not just parts of it. That, and that your interpretation isn't based on the original language that scripture was written in, but on a 391 year old translation, which although it was a good one, is not precise. If you would stop ranting and actually read the scriptures I'm quoting (I'm not just doing it for my health), go look them up in a Strong's Concordance, Hebrew Lexicon or something, you'd realize that the words have two different meanings in their original language and need to be interpreted (and translated) as such in any modern langauge. Most modern translations (NASB, NAS95, NKJV, NRSV, NIV) and even a few older ones (like Youngs' Literal Translation - 1898), and even some foreign language translation like the Vulgate (405 A.D.- Latin) realize this. When you bring some evidence from the Hebrew language- which this particular set of scriptures was written in- then you will have a case for your argument. In addition, I HIGHLY recommend: The Death Penalty: God's Wisdom or Man's Folly ? http://www.antithesis.com/features/death_penalty.html A VERY good article that will challenge a lot of you folks who SAY you believe everything the Bible teaches, yet reject capital punishment #3 - (as I just told Darnita on the phone a few mins ago and will now post for everyone to read): QUOTE Do you not know that the unrighteous  will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Cor. 6:9-10, ESV The phrase 'nor men who practice homosexuality' is actually a combo of two different words: malakos - those who participate as the aggressor in homosexual acts (a cousin to our english word 'malady' which means injury or trouble) and arsenokoites - an interesting word (arsenos, from which we get our english word 'arson', which means to light a fire and koites, from which we get the technical term for sex - coitus) for those who submit to malakoi (plural form of the word, which is how it appears in the text). But please notice what ELSE is also condemned in the text. 'sexually immoral' - the greek word is porneia from which we get our english word pornography. It was a blanket term to describe ANY sexual act outside of the marriage of one man and one woman - homosexuality, beastiality, incest, premarital sex, adultery, etc.... Idolaters - those who place THINGS as more valuable and worthy of their time and service than God. Some of you need to walk out of your band rooms and put your instruments down. Adulterers - those who practice adultery. Like to creep on wifey ? Never see eternal lifey. Theives - duh. Revilers - duh. That's the foul mouthed, FYI. The rest are self-explanatory. And for those who think Jesus never spoke on homosexuality: QUOTE Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?   But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone." - Matthew 15:17-20, ESV He condemned ALL of these practices in one fell swoop (I wish I could be as succinct as Him!). But notice what else is condmned EQUALLY among the act of homosexuality. Everyone humpin' outside of marriage as a regular practice and part of life fall under the same condemnation. Every person who practices theft as a regular part of their life falls under that condemnation. Every person who seeks after wealth more than God falls under this condemnation. Every person who murders (not 'kills') falls under this condemnation. ALL Sin separates men from God (Isaiah 59:1-2). The heterosexual who practices premarital sex is just as much on his way to hell as the homosexual who practices a homosexual lifestyle. Like I told Ed in the other thread - you're not going to hell for practicing or doing XXX or YYY, but you're ALREADY on your way to Hell because you are a SINNER and have not placed your faith and trust in the Son of God (John 3:18-20, 35-36). God has called ALL men and women to repent of their sins and turn to Him as Lord of their lives (Acts 17:30-31). God does indeed know the heart: QUOTE   So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.   A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.   Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.   Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.   On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' - Matthew  7:17-23, ESV And the gospel message demands obedience, not simply 'lip service' or the cliché "well, God knows my heart" : QUOTE But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.  For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.  For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. - James 1:22-24, ESV Christianity is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN man 'reaching up' to God by his good works, sheer will power, or any of that other nonsense - it is God reaching down and giving a DEAD MAN, NEW LIFE. It is pictured in the resurrection of Lazarus, but even moreso in the OT passage in the book of Ezekiel: QUOTE So men don't seek God - at least not for the right reasons when we do seek Him. We ask the next question: does God seek Man ? YES. Man has no natural desire to seek God and worship God on His terms according to His laws and statutes (Romans 3:10-18). Man cannot understand the things of God, for they are foolishness to him (1 Cor. 2:14). The natural man is at emnity (having a deep seated bias or feeling against) with God and cannot be subject to God's law (Romans 8:6-8). For these reasons, as Romans 8:8 tells us, the natural or unsaved man cannot please God. To the natural man, God's laws sound like this ======>"blah blah blah blah blah...." But what man does not have the desire to do, God makes happen through His love and mercy. We have a very direct example in Ezekiel 36:22-32 on how God does this seeking of men: 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. 24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the corn and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! (Ezekiel 36:22-32, NIV) Notice the progression of the above passage. God, speaking to the nation of Israel tells them FIRST and foremost that what He is about to do has nothing to do with them deserving it, working for it, or earning it - in fact, it has nothing to do with them at all. It isn't for their sake, concern or well being that He is having mercy upon them. God then lists one of Israel's major offenses - God's name (a direct representation of Who He is) has been profaned among the neighboring nations as well as by Israel itself (22-23). God would be perfectly just in leaving them in the state that they were currently in (which was judgement because of their sins). Instead, God tells them He will do several things for them (which, as we have seen, scripture says they are incapable of doing for themselves): -  Gather Israel from other countries and bring them back into their own land (v. 24) -  Sprinkle Israel with water and cleanse Israel from their sins and uncleaness from worshiping idols (v. 25) -  Put a new heart and a new spirit in Israel - remove Israel's heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh (v. 26) -  Put His Spirit in Israel and move Israel to follow His decrees and keep His laws (v. 27) While this is mostly a physical restoration (Israel as a nation being restored), there are several spiritual implications explicit in the text. God decrees what He will do. Daniel 4:35 tells us that no purpose of God's can be thwarted by man. God Himself tells us that when He purposes something, it will come to pass, without fail (Isaiah 14:24). Contrary to what a lot of churches teach today, God is not limited by human decisions. This is what God does with Israel; Waaay back in Deut. 7:6, God declares His unconditional love for Israel, reflecting back to an unconditional promise He made to Abraham back in Gen. 12 and 18. He promises to make Israel a great nation and through Israel, all of the nations of the earth will be blessed. It's not based on anything Israel had done to earn His favor - He simply chose to do so. He chose to love Israel, even back when Israel wasn't a nation. God loves intimately. It is God who then gathers Israel out of the other nations they have been scattered to. God Calls. It is God who cleanses Israel from their sins. God Gives. It is God who changes the heart of the Israelites in this passage - replacing their heart of stone with a heart of flesh. God changes the heart . It is God who moves inwardly to cause Israel to follow and keep His decrees and His laws. God sets them apart. Notice anything consistent with this pattern ?

Posted by: Dr. Looseneck Jan 21 2004, 11:15 PM

Thanks dawg. I really dont feel like gettin in this debate anymore.

Posted by: MusicalWarLord Jan 22 2004, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (D*Unification Project @ Jan 21 2004, 10:01 PM) *comes in..... nah..... ...leaves* I was with him. And WE Out This...

Posted by: TheBionicSIGMA Jan 22 2004, 06:35 AM

QUOTE (taz719 @ Jan 22 2004, 12:43 AM) Thanks for answering my question and yeah thats what I mean if the people aren't christians and don't believe in the same laws. So what if they're atheists and don't believe in God period? QUOTE Romans 1:18-23 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. I deal with folks over at http://www.infidels.org on occassion, specifically (in the past) Dennis McKinsey and Farrell Till. Both of these men claim to be atheists.... truth is, they believe in God. As Gleason Archer (Enclycopedia of Biblical Difficulties) rightly surmised, these men believe in God enough to shake their fist at Him, blaspheme Him and curse Him every day of their existence and devote an entire portion of their lives to doing so. Why spend so much time writing about and declaring the non-existence of Someone you believe doesn't exist ? and if you read some of their articles, some of them jump to it with reckless abandon. (as a counter - http://www.christian-thinktank.com and/or http://www.tektonics.org are good Christian sites which interact with and refute much of the material @ infidels.org) Further, no atheist truly lives as though life has no purpose and we are just cosmic accidents. ALL of them presuppose Christian morality when dealing the problem of evil - because outside of a theistic - and specifically Christian worldview, human life has no value, dignity or merit. None of them live as though there is no intrinsic difference between a computer and a human. None of them LIVE as though emotions - love, hate, joy, contentment, longing, etc.... are simply biological flubs created by the delusions of our mind. All of these things can only have MEANING if there is a Creator and He has given human life a certain worth or dignity. That being said, IMO, at its' very core, there is no such thing as a completely honest atheist. They are all, as scripture declares, actively holding down and denying the truth of God in their unbelief. Deep, deep down... they know. QUOTE 1    The fool   says in his heart,   "There is no God."   They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;   there is no one who does good. - Psalm 14:1, any translation

Posted by: I Define Real Jan 22 2004, 10:40 AM

I mean I laugh at BUSH: The ex-coke head, grim reaper to many American soliders and Iraqi citizens, who dares to mention AMENDING THE CONSTITUTION to prevent gay marriage. What an Idiot!!! I MEAN THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS A LESBIAN DAUGHTER!!! COME ON!!! Lesbians and Gays are VISIBLE!!! Allow them equal rights... I think all of you sinners out there, that judge!!! Are pathetic!!!!... Give your opinion on regulating the life of someone else, ONLY if you've committed NO sin!!! Think, at one point in history AFRICAN AMERICANS had no legal recognition AFRICAN AMERICANS couldnt marry! Until someone stood up and FOUGHT for us! RIGHT NOW, GAYS/ LESBIANS are in the same boat. And with time, persistence, education and a FIGHT!!! They too will acheive recognition! - HOLLA

Posted by: I Define Real Jan 22 2004, 11:10 AM

Dang Right!!!! - Highly Insane -Holla