<Romanist> hmm well ill throw out a question-do you
all think you cooperate in your sanctification in a way that you dont cooperate
in justification (not meaning you believe in synergy in justification of
course-just that properly nuanced you would agree with statements that god does
not justify us without our consent and such)?
<wonky> Ohh
that is sweet DrO and I are using the same windowblinds theme
<johnMark> define cooperate?
<CalvinDude> Whoo-hoo! I have a screen shot of my desktop too now! http://www.peterpike.com/screenshot.jpg
<SpideyGeek> rofl!!!!
<SpideyGeek> It's... the BSoD (tm)!
<DrOakafk> LOL
<wonky> DrO
and I must be linked deep in our psyches
<Romanist> respond to gods grace in your
sanctification. for instance, within sanctification you can resist god's grace
by sinning no?
<DrOakafk> wonky: Sort of like in Twins, huh?
* CalvinDude
has gotten so many of the BSoD (tm)'s...and that's just today.
* JoelYrick
is glad that he deleted that sound!
<wonky> I
do look sorta like Arnold but aren't you being alittle hard on yourself
<DrOakafk> I'm going to go lift now. :-)
<DrOakafk> ()()() James is
Away. Lord willing, he will return. :) ()()()
<-- Canterbury (canterbury@dialup-203-113-253-87.Hobart.netspace.net.au) has left #prosapologian
<CalvinDude> Better not levitate...
<StJohnCalv> God Bless DrOakafk
* OS_Xtypes
is ashamed to show his desktop.
<OS_Xtypes> It's cluttered with EVERYTHING.
<amylooz> DrOak... muah ! =) sleep well
bro...
<SpideyGeek> Bye, Doc!
<pquick> Romanist: I'm sure we differentiate between justification and
sanctification much more than the RCC does
<amylooz> So... I wonder why those Honda
Elements are so inexpensive...
* JoelYrick
notes that Wayne Grudem says that Sanctification is a cooperation unlike
Justification- and I wasn't sure if I agreed
<JoelYrick> and he =P
<Romanist> of course pquick-thats why im asking your
viewpoint
<Romanist> is wayne grudem reformed?
<Romanist> i havent heard of him sorry
<JoelYrick> yes Reformed Baptist
<pquick> Romanist: Wayne Grudem is a "quasi" reformed baptist -- he
went to school at a reformed seminary, is a baptist, but leans towards
charismaticism
<Romanist> okay
<Romanist> so you guys would disagree with his and
my statement?
<JoelYrick> so because he leans towards
charismaticism he's not fully reformed, or is there another reason?
<pquick> Romanist: he's the author of a
fairly recent Protestant Systematic Theology
--- You are now known as DrEvil
<pquick> Joel: yeah, kinda.
labels are tricky things
<DrEvil> Wayne Grudem is semi-reformed.
<DrEvil> He's quasi-reformed.
<DrEvil> He's the margarine of reformed.
<JoelYrick> I'm wanting to say that its no more
of a cooperation than Justification, but I don't know
* JoelYrick slaps DrEvil around a bit with a
Taco Bell hard shell taco
* CalvinDude
uploads a pic of his REAL desktop....
<DrEvil> He's the diet coke of reformed -
just one calorie, not reformed enough!
<StJohnCalv> JoelYrick, look at your pm.
<SpideyGeek> LOL, X
<pquick> Funny, X
<DrEvil> Y'know Joel, that's not something
one dude should say to another dude..yeah..
<CalvinDude> DUDE...
<CalvinDude> D()()()()()D!
<SpideyGeek> DUUUUUUUUUUUDE!
<SpideyGeek> d00d!
<DrEvil> dŸd!
<SpideyGeek> lol]
<SpideyGeek> lol
<CalvinDude> This is sooooooooooo....sloooooo
w.
--- You are now known as OS_Xtypes
<pquick> Romanist: It doesn't seem like this channel really wants to debate a
Roman Catholic on Justification / Sanctification right now. It's not that we are ignoring you...
<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--didn't you mean: þ+¾†Œ£€–’‰Ž
* JoelYrick
would very much like to get into the issue
<pquick> Romanist: Have you listened to any of Dr. James Whites debates with
Catholic apologists on these topics?
<JenOPCer> seems like it would be a lot of
hairsplitting
<johnMark> Grudem is a 5-pointer who beleives in the
gifts
<Romanist> thats cool pquick-btw im not looking to
debate-im just wanting to get a firmer handle on the reformed perspective.
yes i should go out and read some books and d/l some debates but i just thought
id ask here
<pquick> cool, Romanist. do you consider yourself a Catholic apologist
of sorts?
<Romanist> pquick-not at all
<JoelYrick> Romanist: <StJohnCalv> Santification
is synergistic.
<OS_Xtypes> Stop instigating, Joel :p
<CalvinDude> Nonsense. By all means, instigate.
* OS_Xtypes
slaps JoelYrick around a bit with a boston creme pie
<pquick> Sanctification is synergistic --
meaning we do cooperate with God
<pquick> right, Joel?
<JoelYrick> lol
<OS_Xtypes> Santification ?
<JoelYrick> I don't know, but I was able to
pull it out of SJC in PM
<StJohnCalv> sorry for the mis spelling
<StJohnCalv> lol
<CalvinDude> Mmmmm....now I'm getting hungry.
<theist> who is Peter Pike?
<StJohnCalv> I am doing 6 things at once.
<cowpoet> Yes, me and Micah had a blast!
<CalvinDude> theist--wouldn't you like to know.
<johnMark> yeah, WHO is Peter Pike?
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<JoelYrick> Santification- the act of becoming
Santa
<theist> CalvinDude: well...uhhhh....yeah
<pquick> get me some, CD crackers? ice cream?
<OS_Xtypes> Peter Pike - some lamer who runs a website or
two and thinks he has a network.
<OS_Xtypes> :-)
<pquick> heee laughs with Joel
<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--yeah, that sounds about right.
<SpideyGeek> X - Kinda like Julie Staples, eh?
<pquick> whew, I admire ya, Spidey
<johnMark> Romanist, does the RCC teach that one who
is a beleiver may not end up being santified?
<OS_Xtypes> Naw, JS is cool.
<CalvinDude> Peter Pike owns thecalvinist.com,
debateatheism.org, and peterpike.com (and soon, another URL which isn't active
yet)
<johnMark> Julie who?
<johnMark> oohh..Tims sister er something...yeah, her!
<SpideyGeek> X - Nah, she's a total lamer... is Tim Staples's
niece or something
<OS_Xtypes> from thecalvinist.com's front page: Greetings!
To dispel all notions to the contrary, a Calvinist believes God is a stuffed
tiger and plays with a little boy...
<johnMark> LOL
<StJohnCalv> Sanctification is synergistic
<--------There, I have redeemed my spelling error.
<johnMark> petercalvinist.com?
* OS_Xtypes
only owns three URLs.
<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--whoa! When did you become Dave Hunt?
* JoelYrick
notes that Santification must also be synergistic too
<OS_Xtypes> ROFL
<SpideyGeek> lol
* StJohnCalv
slaps JoelYrick around a bit with a large trout
<johnMark> StJohn, those who are justified will be
sanctified which I think is different than that the RCC teaches
--- You are now known as DaveHunt
<DaveHunt> right now.
<DaveHunt> :)
<Romanist> johnmark-well we make the mistake of combining
justification and sanctification so its hard to answer that question. but
a justified person would be bearing fruit obviously i think we both agree
--- You are now known as OS_X
<OS_X> much
better.
<SpideyGeek> Kewl, CD!!
<JoelYrick> <StJohnCalv> Santification is
synergistic.
<Romanist> heh
<StJohnCalv> [23:16] <JoelYrick> SJC, we agree on
active reprobation, could we also agree on active sanctification- I'm aware
that could be completely non-sequitar, but I don't know
<StJohnCalv> JoelYrick, two can play at this game.
<johnMark> Romanist, we just had a discussion on
this on carm on the cat board
<archjak1> johnmark - Who?
<SpideyGeek> <wonky> Signs was about as scary as big
giant not scary at all thing
<johnMark> arch, several people :)
<JoelYrick> SJC, it got the answer out of you!
<JoelYrick> you gotta admit that!
<Romanist> cool john-ill have to check it out-i
usually just visit greg k's board for my theological debates heh
<OS_X>
They've even got Charles Hodge's systematic
* JoelYrick
wonders how long he can wait on SJC's bluff, then deletes the SJC pop-up
<pquick> Romanist: start reading a book (if you like recommendations) -- The God
Who Justifies, by Dr. James White. It's
very informative, thorough, scholarly, but not overly "technical"
-- it will tell you what the Protestant Reformed position is on Justification
<Romanist> pquick-yes i wasnt looking for somebody
to post 10 pgs from a systematic theology book on this-i was just wondering if
you guys consider sanctification synergistic
<Romanist> joel-nope this has been my nick for years
<OS_X> Romanist
- in addition to that, I'd also recommend R.C. Sproul's books - Faith Alone:
The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, Gettign the GOspel Right and Willing
to Believe. Between those four, you'll get a very good balanced view of the
protestant viewpoint.
<Romanist> thanks for the recs
<OS_X> ~nas
Phil. 2:12-13
<Gutenberg> Phil. 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not
as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
salvation with fear and trembling; (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to
work for [His] good pleasure. (NASB)
<johnMark> arch and roman, here is the discussion
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=68500
<JoelYrick> LOL OS!
<pquick> ~kjv Eph 4:30
<Gutenberg> Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye
are sealed unto the day of redemption. (KJV)
<OS_X> Roman
- Phil. 2:12-13 is the Reformed
Protestant viewpoint on sanctification (in a nutshell).
<pquick> I think this would pertain to
Sanctification
<johnMark> OS, are you saying the RP uses scripture
to build doctrine?
<johnMark> :)
<OS_X> We
do actively work, but we realize that it is God Himself who works in us both to
will (to give us the very ability to do His will) and to do (the strength to
actually carry it out).
<OS_X> ~nas
Eph. 2:10
<Gutenberg> Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(NASB)
<Romanist> right os
<OS_X> The
good works were 'prepared beforehand' for us. They are not nor cannot be
meritorious.
<johnMark> and we don't "work" as a duty
to fulfill to God
<OS_X>
Exactly.
<OS_X>
~nas Matt. 22:37-40
<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD
YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
(NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
(NASB)
<pquick> we can't please God thru
meritorious works -- Jesus work is sufficient
<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR
NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law
and the Prophets." (NASB)
<johnMark> like bringing your wife flowers because
you love her and not because it's your duty :)
<johnMark> that's a little dig from Piper
* pquick
johnMark doesn't bring meeee floowwers anyyyymore....
<OS_X> Justification
and sanctification are SEPARATE in one aspect. They describe two different dealings with God in relation to
the elect.
<johnMark> lol
<johnMark> OS, yep
<OS_X> ~nas
Rom. 3:28
<Gutenberg> Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart
from works of the Law. (NASB)
<johnMark> Romanist, do you know who Dave Armstrong
is?
<Romanist> yes os im aware of the distinction. the
reason im asking this question is because ive been thinking a lot on
sanctification and the elect bearing fruit-i mean how do you guys bear fruit
and glorify god on a daily basis? ive been having a lot of insecurity about how
the elect bear fruit and whether im deluding myself. i mean dont you guys ever
think you should be doing more in your sanctification after you examine
yourselves? i mean i pray,study,
do
<OS_X> But
sanctification and justification are inseparably linked.
<Romanist> yes os-the golden chain of redemption
<OS_X> After
all, it was Calvin who made the wonderful statement that is oft quoted -
"Though we are saved by faith alone, it is not a faith that IS
alone."
<OS_X> God
doesn't save anyone He doesn't sanctify.
<Romanist> did you guys get that whole post
<johnMark> Romanist, that sounds like you get to a
point where you think you will try and pay God back for your indebtedness
<OS_X> Got
it Romanist. that's actually a good sign.
<johnMark> Romanist, here is a good debate for you
to read through when you have time http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=149&topic_id=110&mesg_id=110&page=
<Romanist> os yes ive heard that if youre even
asking that question thats a good sign but i dont put much stock in that. dont
you ever experience similar things. i see lives of past christians that are
remarkable. so im often filled with doubt. the gate is narrow. and then i think
of those at the last judgment who will say didnt i do these mighty works in
your name and will be met with i never knew you. so i feel like im in a
catch-22
<OS_X> Romanist
- what is the basis of your salvation ?
<johnMark> OS, good question
<OS_X> That's
what your real dilema comes down to.
<johnMark> find your joy, love, life in Christ Jesus
<OS_X> Before
we got flooded, that's what I was typing.
<OS_X> My
assurance comes from the fact that Christ is faithful to me and will not leave
me nor forsake me.
<OS_X> My
assurance of my salvation comes from the fact that He who began a good work in
me WILL complete it.
<OS_X> ~nas
phil. 1:6
<Gutenberg> Phil. 1:6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who
began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (NASB)
<OS_X> my
assurance comes from the fact that no one (and no one includes myself) can
snatch me out of His hand.
<OS_X> ~nas
John 10:27-29
<Gutenberg> John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they
follow Me; (NASB)
<Gutenberg> John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never
perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> John 10:29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater
than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. (NASB)
<Romanist> christ of course. btw dont think of
me in rc terms please when answering these questions if possible. right os_x,
but peter also says to examine yourselves to look for signs of bearing fruit
and that your election is sure. so when you examine yourself and (in my case at
least) think you could be doing SO much more to glorify god, does not that give
you pause?
<OS_X> It
does.
<Romanist> that is my dilemma
<OS_X> But
then I look back (again) at the ground and root of my salvation.
<johnMark> Romanist, here is a quote I made up which
kinda sums it up for me, The
question is not, "Am I good enough to be a Christian?" but, "Am
I good enough not to be?"
<OS_X> I
realize that 'sinless perfectionism' is impossible in this life.
<OS_X> We
are what we are by God's grace alone.
<-- cowpoet has quit ()
<OS_X> I
look @ Paul struggling in Romans 7 - PAUL!!!
<OS_X> Still,
I am commanded by God to press forward every day and die to myself.
<OS_X> So
I do - as best as I can.
<OS_X> I
already know I won't be perfect with it and being my own worst critic, I can
ALWAYS be doing more.
<johnMark> as Spurgeon said, "Do something, do
something, do something"
<Romanist> yes precisely. paul gives some comfort.
but christ's warnings-the gate is narrow, if you are lukewarm i will spew you
from my mouth, i never knew you etc weigh heavily on my conscience
<OS_X> But
I believe God allows us at times to fall back into some sin to humble us and
remember that no matter how 'good' we try to be after professing faith, we
still fall as short of perfection as a man trying to jump to california from a
pier in Hawaii.
<OS_X>
Romanist - was David lukewarm ?
<OS_X> Remember
David was a man after God's own heart. Yet David was an adulterer, murderer and
stayed in unconfessed sin for over about a year.
--> tiredofNJ (~diaeresis@67.84.151.20) has joined #prosapologian
<-- Romanist has quit (Ping timeout for Romanist[AC89EE0D.ipt.aol.com])
<RocketMan> I have always wondered about that
<OS_X> AOL
got romanist. LOL
<OS_X> Is
Romanist really a Romanist ?
<skyman`> yes
--> Romanist (e@172.137.238.13) has joined #prosapologian
<OS_X> Welcome
back.
<Romanist> sorry got disconnected
<OS_X> It's
AOL. We know. :)
<Romanist> what was the last part of the convo
before i got disconnected
<OS_X> Romanist
- was David lukewarm ?
<OS_X> Remember
David was a man after God's own heart. Yet David was an adulterer, murderer and
stayed in unconfessed sin for over about a year.
<Romanist> yes this is true
<OS_X> But
David's considered a hero of the faith (Heb. 11:32).
<JoelYrick> nas 1Ti 1:15
<JoelYrick> ~nas 1Ti 1:15
--> MicahSlays (~klockheed@adsl-66-218-55-85.dslextreme.com) has joined #prosapologian
<Gutenberg> 1 Tim. 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full
acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I
am foremost [of all]. (NASB)
<SpideyGeek> Micah!
--- CStar
gives channel operator status to MicahSlays
<OS_X> I'm
sure that David's lusting problems didn't begin with Bathsheba. They never do.
<MicahSlays> SpideyGeek!
<JoelYrick> ~kjv 1Ti 1:15
<Gutenberg> 1 Tim. 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all
acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I
am chief. (KJV)
<OS_X> But
David's *heart* eventually showed itself in his actions - he truly repented
(Ps. 51) of what he had done.
<OS_X>
The fruit of David's 'new heart' given to him by God showed that he
was a believer. Not a perfect one, but a believer.
<OS_X>
David's issue wasn't 'did I do enough to stay saved' - but rather 'because
I am saved, this is what I need to do'.
<OS_X> Take
a look at the Matt. 7:24 passage you quoted earlier.
<OS_X>
~nas Matt. 7:24
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine
and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the
rock. (NASB)
<OS_X> oops.
<OS_X>
~nas Matt. 7:23
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew
you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)
<Romanist> yes os_x. BECAUSE i am saved, this
is what i need to do. so if you DONT do it....
<johnMark> Romanist, he is not saying that I need to
do this to be saved...he is already saved
<OS_X> Matter
of fact, 7:21-23
<MicahSlays> would you folks say that the Church during the
middle ages was by and large a good organization?
<OS_X> ~nas
Romans 7:21-23
<Romanist> os-yes but were they AWARE they were
practicing lawlessness or had they deluded themselves?
<johnMark> nah
<Gutenberg> Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me,
the one who wants to do good. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner
man, (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Romans 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body,
waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of
sin which is in my members. (NASB)
<OS_X> Oops.
<OS_X> although
this actually does pertain to our convo....
<MicahSlays> ~nas mat 7:21-23
<OS_X> ~nas
Matt. 7:21-23
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will
enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
heaven [will enter]. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,
did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?' (NASB)
<OS_X> Thanks
Micah. LOL
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew
you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)
<Romanist> johnmark-yes i know-but if you dont do
it-its a sign you werent saved
<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will
enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
heaven [will enter]. (NASB)
<SpideyGeek> Micah - Um, no I wouldn't...
<CalvinDude> http://www.se34.net/ is now updated with
a quick flash movie I made, in which you can hear me play a quick guitar riff
too :-)
<OS_X> IMO,
Jesus wasn't giving a COMMAND here, but a statement of what the elect will do
and what the non-elect will do.
<SpideyGeek> His exchange with Rond was getting nasty...
<OS_X> The
non-elect will base their salvation on their works (i.e.- Lord, didn't we do
this in your name ?)
--> Bradford (VanTil@ACC15F16.ipt.aol.com) has joined #prosapologian
<MicahSlays> nor would I, SpideyGeek, TGE would have us
believe that the accesses of the Roman church in that time and thereafter were
simply "exceptions" rather than the "rule"
<OS_X> Jesus's
statement doesn' t say 'I used to know you, but you fell away or didn't do
enough so I don't know you anymore'.
<OS_X> Jesus
says I '*NEVER* knew you.
<SpideyGeek> Awesome, CD!
<SpideyGeek> Micah - Yeah, give the RCC back the power it
had in the Middle Ages and see what happens...
<OS_X> The
greek word GINOSKO (know) denotes intimate fellowship and experiential knowing
vs a 'surface knowledge' knowing (usually termed by the greek word OIDA).
--> buzz (~djgere777@ip68-98-94-50.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #Prosapologian
<SpideyGeek> Hiya, Bradford!
<CalvinDude> Spidey--yeah, I've gots to do lotsa work
on it to make it REALLY cool, but for a quick "this site will eventually
work" page, it's pretty sweet :-)
<buzz> Evenin'
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<SpideyGeek> CD - Indeed! Better than animated gifs of guys
doing construction work. ;-)
<OS_X> Jesus
says He *NEVER* 'GINOSKO'ed these folks who claimed to follow Him.
<CalvinDude> SpideyGeek--*ROFL* Those are SOOOOOO 1998!
<OS_X> further,
He charged them with following LAWLESSNESS.
<SpideyGeek> LOL, yup ;-)
<StJohnCalv> [23:58] <StJohnCalv> Psalm 119
<StJohnCalv> [23:58] <StJohnCalv> A heart truly
regenerated speaking about the true nature of the Law.
<SpideyGeek> StJ - :-D
<SpideyGeek> buzzzzzzzzzzzzz :-)
<SpideyGeek> Howdy, Unafraid :-)
<CalvinDude> I'm so glad I got Macromedia Directory
7...
<OS_X> God
sanctifies those whom He elects, calls and justifies. Bottom line.
<Unafraid> hello
<OS_X> ~nas
1John 2:19
<Gutenberg> 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of
us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they
went out], so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB)
<JoelYrick> Howdy Unafraid, what are you doing on this fine day? =)
<OS_X> The
non-elect will NOT continue in the Christian walk. They WILL fall away.
<OS_X> The
elect WILL - *WITHOUT FAIL* continue.
<Unafraid> obviously i am talking on the net
joel lol
<OS_X> We
are given the 'warning passages'
as a natural or regular means of informing us of what we need to do.
<JoelYrick> its a pop-up that no one ever
answers
<johnMark> anyone read The Spider Letter by Jon
Edwards?
<OS_X> But
we are also given the above examples to show that the non-elect will not do
these things.
<OS_X> Got
all that Romanist ?
<-- Stephanos has quit (Ping timeout for
Stephanos[dsl081-229-186.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net])
<Unafraid> well i answered
<OS_X> It's
a bit all over the map, but when connected together, they all come back to
Romans 8:29-30.
<JoelYrick> ~nas Romans 8:29-30
<Gutenberg> Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to
become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn
among many brethren; (NASB)
<Romanist> os right
<Gutenberg> Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and
these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also
glorified. (NASB)
<OS_X> A
'human' illustration is this - God tells you YOU WILL LIVE TO 80 YEARS OF AGE.
SO HAVE I DECREED AND IT WILL BE DONE. God also tells you YOU MUST EAT TO KEEP
LIVING. WEAKNESS WILL COME IF/WHEN YOU DO NOT EAT.
--> anon_329 (~samnj@67.85.171.250) has joined #prosapologian
--- anon_329 is now known as samnj
<OS_X> God
ordains the ends and the means for all of these things to happen.
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 25:26-30
<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You
wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I
scattered no [seed]. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and
on my arrival I would have received my [money] back with interest. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it
to the one who has the ten talents.' (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:29 "For to everyone who has, [more] shall be given,
and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he
does have shall be taken away. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer
darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NASB)
<OS_X> So
examine yourself.
<-- CalvinDude has quit ()
<OS_X> Are
you out investing the talents that He has left you with ?
<Romanist> not to nearly the fullest possible extent
i could be. that is the problem
<OS_X> and
again, it comes back to this - what is the ground/basis of your being declared
just before God ?
<-- anon_328 has quit (Ping timeout for anon_328[67.85.165.116])
<OS_X> The
unprofitable servant won't be worried about this stuff.
<OS_X> Take
a look at his attitude in v. 26 and 27.
<johnMark> I picked up a book called , "A
Jonathan Edwards Reader" today
<JoelYrick> Adios todos =)
--- JoelYrick is now known as JoelGone
<OS_X> I
still believe it comes back to this - what is the ground/basis of your being
declared just before God ?
* OS_X
slaps JoelYrick out of the room
<OS_X> :)
--> anon_328 (~samnj@67.85.165.116) has joined #prosapologian
<RocketMan> the finished work of Christ
<OS_X> the
finished work of Christ ALONE ?
<OS_X> or
are you relying on your works to 'keep you saved' ?
<OS_X> This
is the key issue.
--- anon_328 is now known as sam
<RocketMan> the first
<RocketMan> I'm not Catholic
<Romanist> os shouldnt true disciples of christ
suffer and sacrifice? i see evangelists being imprisoned overseas or selling
all their stuff to set up clinics or schools or whatnot. that is sacrifice.
giving a meal to a homeless guy every once in a while isnt. yes struggling with
sin can be viewed as suffering i suppose
<-- samnj has quit (Ping timeout for samnj[67.85.171.250])
<OS_X> That
understandable, but *the issue* is still this - what is the ground/basis of
your being declared just before God ?
<Romanist> os-relying on christ but also realizing a
good tree will bear fruit and to examine myself daily
<OS_X> So are you relying on your works to 'keep
you saved' ?
<Romanist> i am relying on them to see if my
election is sure
<OS_X> what
does that mean ?
<MicahSlays> I was right about recons...
<buzz> Hi
Micah
<MicahSlays> grrr
<MicahSlays> hello buzz
--> Hobster (hcnewton@sdn-ap-026castocP0434.dialsprint.net) has joined #prosapologian
--- Gutenberg removes ban on
*!*@*interbusiness.it
<Romanist> ~nas 2Cor 13:5
<Gutenberg> 2 Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith;
examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus
Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test? (NASB)
<Romanist> ~nas 2Pet 1:10
<Gutenberg> 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make
certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these
things, you will never stumble; (NASB)
<mon-lurx> That is directed to the church body
(2 Cor 13:5)
<tiredofNJ> Eh. He makes good points, Micah, like they always do, but the
problem is what's actually being said ... you can point out fault after fault
after fault of the modern church, and even quote Athanasius, but neither even
begins to establish that the pre-Reformation RC church was an ideal.
<OS_X> How
do you examine yourself ? What's the examination process ?
<OS_X> ~nas
1john 5:10-13
<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the
testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,
because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His
Son. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (NASB)
* mon-lurx
is sick and tired of hearing that passage (by Protestants and Catholics alike)
being misused.
<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have
the Son of God does not have the life. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the
name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (NASB)
<MicahSlays> tired - surely, but that's not the point
<tiredofNJ> Heya, Hobster.
<mon-lurx> :)
<MicahSlays> tired - to claim that the excesses of the 12-15
century 'church
--> wolfie (~swwolf@adsl-66-218-55-85.dslextreme.com) has joined #prosapologian
<MicahSlays> were the 'exception' is flabbergasting
<OS_X> Actually,
the 2 Peter 1:10 passage is a good backup to the 'human' illustration I posted
earlier.
<OS_X> A
'human' illustration is this - God tells you YOU WILL LIVE TO 80 YEARS OF AGE.
SO HAVE I DECREED AND IT WILL BE DONE. God also tells you YOU MUST EAT TO KEEP
LIVING. WEAKNESS WILL COME IF/WHEN YOU DO NOT EAT.
<RocketMan> mon, if you are tired, go to bed!
<Hobster> hiya tired
<mon-lurx> lol Rocket
<OS_X> God
ordains the ends and the means for all of these things to happen.
<mon-lurx> Prolly need to
<mon-lurx> Hey, wolfie!
<Romanist> os-i examine myself to see if my actions
are inline with scripture's commands and warnings
<tiredofNJ> Micah: *shrug* For reasons I don't
get they're trying to attack the Reformation. I agree with you.
Rome is no Christianity at all.
<Romanist> os i can understand that
<MicahSlays> tired - *shrug back* let
<MicahSlays> tired - *shrug back* let's conquer the world
for christ, grab an AK and I'll meet you at the pool-hall
<OS_X> Well
and fine. So when you see yourself
falling short of it, you doubt your salvation. The reason for this is because you are still relying on your
works as the ground of your salvation.
<RocketMan> mon, if you spell like that, you do need to go
to bed!
<mon-lurx> heh
<mon-lurx> <slurred speech>
<mon-lurx> lol
<RocketMan> :)
<OS_X> Or
at least *part* of the foundation of your salvation.
* MicahSlays
checks mon's drink
* OS_X
could really use a Smirnoff Ice right now.
<Romanist> i am relying on my works as evidence of
my salvation
<mon-lurx> Who came up with "prolly"
anyway?
<tiredofNJ> Maybe the early church did believe
in that ... personally I think it was more a concern about preaching the gospel
for all nations, if their motivations were correct, and wealth and influence,
as they all too often were corrupted ...
<MicahSlays> mon - me
<mon-lurx> LOL
<mon-lurx> :)
<OS_X> Okay
Romanist, how many good works is enough to 'keep' you saved ?
* mon-lurx
looks at Micah, the trend setter
<tiredofNJ> But either way, they're wrong. The NT church is not Israel with a
properly functioning engine, it's a bunch of screwups, like Israel, trusting in
God for mercy, like Israel, and looking forward to *His* establishment of His
kingdom, like Israel.
<Theophorus> ~nas Hos 6:7
* MicahSlays
does the channel dance
<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There
they have dealt treacherously against Me. (NASB)
<MicahSlays> tired - PRAISE GOD! YOU'RE A SCREWUP!
<tiredofNJ> But we don't pave the way. We're brought to life, follow our Lord,
look for His coming, and point others to Him. And that's it, really.
--> DrOakafk (~ortho@cpe-24-221-125-165.az.sprintbbd.net) has joined #ProsApologian
--- CStar
gives channel operator status to DrOakafk
<OS_X> By
the way Romanist - consider the statement just made by Tired - But either way,
they're wrong. The NT church is
not Israel with a properly functioning engine, it's a bunch of screwups, like
Israel, trusting in God for mercy, like Israel, and looking forward to *His*
establishment of His kingdom, like Israel.
<Romanist> obviously there is no number. but the
elect should grow in holiness, sacrifice, suffer, and glorify god
<SpideyGeek> Doc!
* MicahSlays
says in his DJ voice: "Lady's and Gentlemen... DRO!
<OS_X> But
Romanist - if there is no number, then how can you have the assurance mentioned
in 1 John 5 :10-13 ?
<SpideyGeek> w00t!
<DrOakafk> Howdy.
--- DrOakafk is now known as DrOakley
<DrOakley> Seems with the proper video drivers
in place your system will actually go into stand-by. :-)
<SpideyGeek> lol
<DrOakley> mIRC doesn't like that,
however. :-)
<OS_X> you
see, what you have done (hi doc) is used your works as a guage for whether or
not you are saved, but out of the other side of your keyboard, you've said that
you don't believe there's any definitive number of works which can truly
demonstrate that you are a believer.
<DrOakley> I was just listening to the debate
between Matatics and Svendsen, and was getting angry while lifting (which is
sorta good in a way).
<buzz> Evenin
Doc
<DrOakley> Evening Brother Buzz.
<OS_X> At
the risk of committing a logical fallacy, I belive it *MUST* of necessity be
one or the other.
<OS_X> Either
your works in concert with your faith is the ground of your justification or NO
amount of works can absolutely be a determining factor in whether or not you
are one of the elect.
<-- Unafraid has quit ()
<OS_X> And
if the first be true, then Paul is a liar in the book of Galatians and @ Romans
3:27- all of chapter 4.
<StJohnCalv> Theophorus, would you say that Hosea is
speaking of the Covenant of Works?
<OS_X> And
if the second be true, then the only legit means of *determinatively knowing*
[grin] that you are one of the elect is that your assurance of salvation rest
not on YOUR fruit, but on Christ's finished work on the Cross ALONE.
--- wonky is now known as wonkzzZZ
<OS_X> Nite
Wonkers.
<SpideyGeek> Niters, wonkified one :-)
<Theophorus> Yes.
<MicahSlays> drO:
http://reachingforchrist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5305#5305
<Theophorus> Law is defined by "Do this and live"
or in simpler terms "Do this and get that."
--- Theophorus :Nickname is already in
use.
* DrOakley
shakes Theo's hand and accidentally crushes it, having just finished another
healthy round of arm tri-sets...."So sorry."
<kletois> Theo!
<Theophorus> Therefore it was a Covenant of Law.
<Theophorus> LOL
>Theophorus< Hey Theo - u think I framed that argument up
good enough ?
<Theophorus> Yeah.
* Theophorus
informs DrO that he was mistakenly shaking the blade of his new folder.
<DrOakley> Heh.
<Romanist> os so how do you examine yourself
<RocketMan> mirros
<kletois> my mom wanted to know who the hunk
was in the picture (I was at www.straitgate.com/aom)
<RocketMan> mirrors
<Theophorus> lol
--> Biblicist (Gobbler@ip68-104-251-171.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian
--- CStar
gives channel operator status to Biblicist
<Theophorus> There goes the neighborhood.
<SpideyGeek> Gobb!!
<buzz> Hiya
Gobb
<Biblicist> SPidey!, buzz!
<Biblicist> Theo, you took the neighborhood a
while ago.
<SpideyGeek> lol
<DrOakley> Thanks for that link, Micah. I thought TGE had stopped posting.
<DrOakley> :-/
<Biblicist> link?
--- RustyOut is now known as Rusty
--- Received a CTCP Sound freedom.wav
from Rusty
<StJohnCalv> ~kjv hos 6:7
<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there
have they dealt treacherously against me. (KJV)
<OS_X> Let's
see.
<SpideyGeek> Doc - I administered a warning to him and
jmgainor... jm shot himself in the foot with a subsequent post, and I informed
them that the next time either of them acted up, it was the boot.
<DrOakley> It would be relatively easy to
write that script that kicks Rusty as soon as the text "is now known as
Rusty" appears on the screen.
<mon-lurx> LOL
<Romanist> and os you dont think 2cor 13:5 applies
to individual believers?
<OS_X> I
look at my heart like scripture commands me to. Is there an awareness of my sin,
true remosre for it and a desire to turn from whatever I have screwed up in ?
<Rusty> lol
<Romanist> hmm ok
<SpideyGeek> Was one of those "can't kick one and not
the other" Catch-22's. A couple of people are trying to press him for
clarification though... hopefully something good comes of it.
<Rusty> hi
guys, how is everyone?
<SpideyGeek> Rusty!
<Romanist> but os that only seems half the
examination
<OS_X> 2
Cor. 13:5, IMO, applies to the church body in general. Paul was speaking to
wheat and tares both in the visible church. He probably realized 'HEY some of
these folk AIN'T saved!' So they needed to examine themselves.
<DrOakley> It amazes....and saddens....me to
see him referring to the expansion of Rome as the triumph of Christ's kingdom.
<OS_X> Not
done with the examination yet. :)
<Romanist> cool heh
<SpideyGeek> Ditto :-(
<Romanist> i agree with your first part anyhow heh
--> david (david@bb220-255-27-117.singnet.com.sg) has joined #prosapologian
<Theophorus> [21:28] <Biblicist> Theo, you took the
neighborhood a while ago.
<---I'm struggling to not let that go to my head.
--> THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #prosapologian
<david> hi
guys
<david> so,
I missed DL....
<david> by
4 hours
<david> :-(
<SpideyGeek> david!
<SpideyGeek> :-(
<david> hey
SG
<david> I
was going to call in
<david> if
you guys put it at a more sensible time then you'll get a phone call from me...
<david> IDD
is way cheap out here
<THX`> out
where?
<DrOakley> Had a lot of calls today.
<Rusty> well,
i'm out again =). hope everyone's night goes well. God bless
<DrOakley> I was surprised.
<DrOakley> Rusty!
<OS_X> You
know, I never really looked in detail at the 'examination' process in my life.
I simply broke it into three areas
- what do I believe about God, what do I believe about me and my sin and
what will I do in response to it all.
<DrOakley> You come in, play that silly wav,
and leave???
<david> Singapore
* DrOakley
taps his foot.
<Rusty> DrO!
<THX`> singapore
huh?
<Rusty> ...alright,
I'll stay for a minute
<THX`> nice.
<david> yeah
<Rusty> =)
<david> not
bad
<DrOakley> lol
<david> damn
hot
<OS_X> The
answers are found in scripture, Romanist.
<david> every
day
<-- DrOakley has kicked Rusty from
#ProsApologian (Git!)
--> Rusty (Rusty@ip68-104-186-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #ProsApologian
<THX`> expat
or singaporean?
<SpideyGeek> lol
<david> expat,
local wife
<THX`> ok.
<OS_X> What
I beleive about God - Trinity, Deity of Christ, General Attributes, etc....
<THX`> originally
from where?
<david> UK
<david> before
that I was a spirit child of Elohim.... oh no, wrong room
<david> :-)
--> WebGuest (~WebUser@ip68-109-145-183.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian
<THX`> im
a donut. am i in the wrong room too?
<david> \join
mormoncoffeebreak
<OS_X> What
I believe about myself - sinner in need of salvation, my good works can't merit
salvation or serve as any ground for salvation, I need a Savior, I must repent
of my sin, certain actions in my daily life are not pleasing to God and I must
repent/turn from them....
<david> so,
I have a question but I'll save it for a phone-in
<THX`> is
just that this room has the most ppl on this server.
<Rusty> So,
me and two buddies were out to dinner tonight, and we were laughin' and jokin
around. When we got our food, we stopped, and one of us prayed. I'm sure it was
noticably quieter in our area. That is why I am convinced that somewhere there
is Proverb that goes something like...
<david> when's
the next show?
<THX`> so
i came to see what it was all about.
<DrOakley> Hey, our s disappeared!
<david> well,
THX its' a big room
--- DrOakley sets mode +s
#ProsApologian
<Rusty> "Christians
are only quiet when they pray."
=)
<THX`> so
what IS this room all about?
* MDH-lurks
notes that "ProsApologian" is the Greek phrase found at 1 Peter 3:15,
pros apologian, translated "toward a defense." It is the root phrase
of "apologetics," giving a reasoned defense of the Christian faith.
Channel rules and guidelines can be found at http://www.aomin.org/proschat.html
<DrOakley> No wonder we have been
getting.....lots of visitors. :-)
<SpideyGeek> lol
<david> are
you a Christian THX?
<WebGuest> Hey Dr.1
* DrOakley
bonks CStar.
<OS_X> What
I plan to do about it - well, first off I need to confess (1 John 1:9) and then
turn from my sins, make no provision for them any longer, turn to God and turn away from them, deny myself and
die to myself....
<OS_X> That's
a 'rough' version of my interpretation of 'examine yourselves to see if you are
in the faith'.
<THX`> do
i have to be?
* Rusty
still isn't over the many incidents where Gutey unexpectantly 'takes off' from
his post without informing the rest of us
<DrOakley> THX: If you want eternal life. :-)
<david> no.
<david> but
DrO has brought up one of the major advantages!
<THX`> nah,
im happy with just part of life. doesnt have to be eternal.
<tiredofNJ> Occasionally Gutey needs to run to
get milk for his cookiez.
<OS_X> Unbelievers
will not have an awareness of their sin or need for a Savior, and even if they
have this at an intellectual level, they will NOT place their faith in Christ
alone for their salvation.
<THX`> im
pretty easy about these things.
<DrOakley> Must be young.
<Theophorus> lol
<david> wow,
so no problems with dying then? That'll just be a breeze for you?
<THX`> *shrug*
<david> really,
wow - someone who's confident about death
<OS_X> Now
with all of that said, Romanist, we go back to the fundament question I posed
to you earlier....
<THX`> ill
take it as it comes i guess.
<david> really?
Wow, thats quite blase
<OS_X> Well
and fine. So when you see yourself
falling short of it, you doubt your salvation. The reason for this is because you are still relying on your
works as the ground of your salvation.
<SpideyGeek> Why is it that Gutey isn't socializing when
there's a chance to insert some humor into the convo?
<SpideyGeek> *grumbles*
<david> it's
a big deal, you sure you want to risk it on "I'll take it as it
comes"?
<OS_X> At
the risk of committing a logical fallacy, I belive it *MUST* of necessity be
one or the other.
<SpideyGeek> *goes back to writing*
<DrOakley> ~nas Psa 90:12
<OS_X> Either
your works in concert with your faith is the ground of your justification or NO
amount of works can absolutely be a determining factor in whether or not you
are one of the elect.
<Gutenberg> Psalm 90:12 So teach us to number our days, That we may present to
You a heart of wisdom. (NASB)
<Rusty> alright,
now I'm off. THX', welcome to our channel =)
--- Rusty is now known as RustyO
<OS_X> And
if the second be true, then the only legit means of *determinatively knowing*
[grin] that you are one of the elect is that your assurance of salvation rest
not on YOUR fruit, but on Christ's finished work on the Cross ALONE.
* StJohnCalv
waves to johnMark
<david> ~psa
103:15-17
<johnMark> o/
<OS_X> And
if the first be true, then Paul is a liar in the book of Galatians and @ Romans
3:27- all of chapter 4.
<david> ~nas
psa 103:15-17
<david> that's
better
<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:15 As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of
the field, so he flourishes. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:16 When the wind has passed over it, it is no more, And
its place acknowledges it no longer. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:17 But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting
to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's
children, (NASB)
<OS_X> So
according to the testimony of the scriptures, which is true ?
<Theophorus> I was never scared of dying until I became a
Christian.
<david> THX,
have you ever considered that you're really just like chopped grass?
<Romanist> os dont you think sloth is a sin?
--- RustyO is now known as Rustymoves
<OS_X> (and
while you think on that for a second or three, I'll be off grabbing some ice
tea...)
--- You are now known as OS_Xdrinks
<Rustymoves> ...helpin a friend pack. thanks for the
chat
<david> you
have a "good" short life but it's just blown away and doesn't count
for anything.
* Theophorus
dumps some booze in that tea.
--- WebGuest is now known as CollarMan
<DrOakley> lol
<CollarMan> Rookie
<tiredofNJ> THX: Okay. Christians believe that after death,
all meet God, and if you're not in Christ you're cast into hell for
eternity. Why don't you believe
that's the case?
* OS_Xdrinks
holds click lighter in front of face with a mouth full of booze and takes a
deep breath.
<david> oooh,
hardline from Tired
<THX`> do
i have to believe that is the case?
<david> well,
believing or not believing it doesn't make it any less true
<david> I
believe you're a welsh wombat
<tiredofNJ> I would say so, but what I asked
honestly isn't a trick question, I'm just curious why you believe the way you
do.
* david
is wary of welsh wombats, what with their wily ways....
<THX`> not
really a belief. more a topic that hasnt actually been thought about, rather
than a conclusion already made.
<shuLurx> Doc....your daughter just got home,
btw....:)
<david> THX,
what do you know about Jesus?
<tiredofNJ> Fair enough.
<skyman`> <skyman`> dunno
<skyman`> <CollarMan> Don't know anyone
by 'dunno'..
<skyman`> <CollarMan> Sorry
<johnMark> Romanist, is every thought you have that
does not glorify God a sin?
<skyman`> Collarman, you playing some kind of
game?
<DrOakley> sky: Collar is an old friend.
<skyman`> ok
<THX`> jesus?
who he?
<CollarMan> No, just been awhile since I've been on..
<david> lol
<DrOakley> Once a VP of A&O in fact. :-)
<CollarMan> Trivia..
<tiredofNJ> I'll be honest, though, most people
don't have the kind of time to really work through such a topic when it finally
becomes important to work through.
<SpideyGeek> Howdy, CollarMan :-)
<MDH-lurks> Things always get interesting in Channel right
about the time I'm about to fall asleep.........
<MDH-lurks> :-)
<CollarMan> Buenos Diaz!
<SpideyGeek> MDH - So, stay up ;-)
<CollarMan> Ooops!
<MDH-lurks> Nite all
<mon-lurx> hehehe
<mon-lurx> I thought so
<Romanist> johnmark perhaps.
<johnMark> nite
<MDH-lurks> LOL
<SpideyGeek> Niters, MDH!
<THX`> when
does something like that become important?
<david> THX,
seriously though - Jesus makes enormous claims about who He is and the
consequences of ignoring Him
<david> have
you explored that?
<tiredofNJ> When you face the possibility of
dying.
<DrOakley> sky: Thanks for the Amazon thing. I may pick that up.
<-- MDH-lurks has quit ("The Only Thing Man Brings to His Salvation is the
Sin that Makes it Necessary" Charles Spurgeon)
<THX`> nope.
never explored that.
<skyman`> DrO, I forgot, what did I do?
<david> would
you like to?
<Romanist> what do you think johnmark-does anything
that does not glorify god a sin?
<DrOakley> The work on EO.
<THX`> not
really.
<skyman`> ahhh
<david> why
not?
<skyman`> you bet
<THX`> dont
have the time.
<david> don't
have the time to sort your life out?
<david> what
else are you doing?
<tiredofNJ> Which can be at any time,
really. Death has a way of
sneaking up on people.
<THX`> christians
spend a lot of time examining these things.
--- You are now known as OS_X
<OS_X> Back.
<THX`> i
dont think i can spare this kinda time.
<david> why
not?
<david> what
if it's the most important thing you ever look at?
<Romanist> os dont you think sloth is a sin?
<DrOakley> What are you doing that is more
important than eternity, THX?
<THX`> what
if it isnt?
<david> If
someone told you you were ill would you say "don't have the time to
explore the medicine, but thanks.."?
<johnMark> Romanist, thinking of Christ teaching of
doing something in your thought is the same as actually doing it..I would say
yes
<shuLurx> Heya Benny
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<THX`> if
i was ill, id def explore the medicine.
<david> well,
you're ill
<tiredofNJ> Is the other stuff really worth
it? Say that you're suddenly
afflicted with one of any number of diseases and needed to be hospitalized,
would the consideration that you've given towards, say, home theatre setups,
really affect you much?
<CollarMan> Hey Lurx!
<shuLurx> I gotta get my YELL count back up.
I'm sure that I am falling behind in that category!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<david> Jesus
tells us that we're all ill and need medicine, badly
<OS_X> Romanist,
you're missing the point.
<DrOakley> still second the last I looked,
shuey. :-)
<OS_X> You
have have already said that no amount of good works we do can keep us saved.
<david> THX,
when was the last day that you never did anything wrong?
<CollarMan> Ohhhhh! It's shu...I get it <LOL>
<shuLurx> Ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<THX`> really,
he says that?
<david> yup
<THX`> that
we are all ill?
<david> he
does
<shuLurx> Good, B-man, real good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<OS_X> It's
not a matter of what I believe to be a sin - rather it is a matter of what the
ground of my salvation is.
<CollarMan> Can't let someone else here see you are on..
<david> Spiritually
terminally ill
<RocketMan> an evil a perverse generation seeks after a
...stat!
<Theophorus> LOL
<Romanist> johnmark-certainly we can have sinful
thoughts
<tiredofNJ> Well, we're actually worse than
ill, we're dead, but ...
<shuLurx> yes Collar....
<OS_X> is
it Christ alone or Christ plus my 'splendid vic...er...good works as evidence
that I'm His ?
<david> ~nas
eph 2:1
<Gutenberg> Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (NASB)
<THX`> so
we all have no hope then. lol
<shuLurx> Whatever it takes, RM
<shuLurx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* Theophorus
straps Rocket to the tip of one of his personal "frankensteins" and
sends him into orbit.
<tiredofNJ> THX: Right, actually! :)
<RocketMan> that's commitment
<david> no
hope whatsover
<david> soever
<OS_X> whatsover
?
<OS_X> the
opposite of under.
<THX`> in
which case, we should all just give up then surely?
* RocketMan
notes Theo is not capable of such a feat...only Balloon Boy can do that
<CollarMan> Our closet is too small for more shoes...
<tiredofNJ> That's why the publican in Luke 18
fell on his face before God and cried for undeserved mercy.
<david> what
if someone could save you from that terrible situation?
<tiredofNJ> No. One should follow the publican's example, and if one doesn't
have such feelings, one should start asking for a new heart.
* Theophorus
chuckles as Rocket has somehow preprogrammed his beast to write "You
Suck" in the sky in case of hostile takeover
<Romanist> os okay then how are we to determine if
we are deluding ourselves if we cannot examine our actions as a sign of our
election
<RocketMan> Collarman, get a bigger closet!
<CollarMan> No money...
<CollarMan> Humble means..
<RocketMan> shu does not accept that as an excuse
<shuLurx> Bigger closet or small
feet....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<CollarMan> Barefoot in our monastary...
<shuLurx> lol
<DrOakley> THX: Ever taken the time to read any of the words of the one man
in history who rose from the dead?
<RocketMan> suffer'in for Jesus?
<johnMark> DrO, good point
<RocketMan> so you are saying there is a big shoe market
there???
<CollarMan> THX: How do you know Jesus of Nazareth even
existed?
<THX`> where
are these words?
<david> in
the Bible
<david> the
big book with the little books inside it
<DrOakley> Well, I would highly recommend to
you the Gospel of John.
<david> yeah,
a good one is John
<OS_X> Romanist
- I know in *REFORMED* Churches (those that really are reformed in practice,
not just in name) the combination of the gospel message being proclaimed again
every Sunday, the sacraments being explained and partaken of every Sunday, the
charge to examine yourselves for unconfessed sin and unrepentant lives usually
serve to be too much for most folk to sit under for an extended period of time
and not really take a look at themselves
<OS_X> .
<DrOakley> You could probably read it in a
single sitting.
<THX`> they
werent his words were they? thought bible words were words of ppl that wrote
about him?
<david> Matthew
Mark and Luke also have a pretty good review on Amazon :-)
<CollarMan> THX: How do you determine what is right and
wrong?
<david> they're
his words, for example here's what Luke says when writing about it,
<david> ~nas
luke 1:1-4
<DrOakley> THX: That is correct.
John is written by Jesus' closest disciple.
<Gutenberg> Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of
the things accomplished among us, (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Luke 1:2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the
beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, (NASB)
<THX`> those
words are lukes then, not his own.
<Gutenberg> Luke 1:3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated
everything carefully from the beginning, to write [it] out for you in
consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Luke 1:4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you
have been taught. (NASB)
<OS_X> With
that kind of 'pressure', you are forced to look at your life and check it
against the picture of scripture. Not just one day's actions, but your whole
'life pattern'.
<david> they're
written from eyewitnesses
<Biblicist> CollarMan, how goes it?
<OS_X> And
that also includes the ground of your salvation - whehter you are trusting in
Christ alone for your salvation or Christ + your good works.
<CollarMan> It's not gone yet...
<CollarMan> :^)
<shuLurx> Gotta go, gotta work tomorrow.....
<shuLurx> gn
<THX`> so
are they true accounts?
<david> so
we may know the exact truth.....
--- shuLurx is now known as shuZZZ
<david> yup
<CollarMan> Oh, and we don't?
<DrOakley> Nighty Shuey.
<THX`> are
you sure?
<DrOakley> Have fun tomorrow.
<david> yup
<Biblicist> Heh...
<SpideyGeek> Niters, shuey!
<shuZZZ> ok....
<RocketMan> yeah, me too...big test tomorrow
<CollarMan> ShuzZZZ or Snoooz?
<david> night
guys
<Biblicist> Nite shuey
<DrOakley> THX: Some of us have spent our lives studying them. :-)
<Romanist> os- it is of course right to rely on
christ alone, but we also must remember good trees bear fruit, disciples should
grow in holiness, suffer, sacrifice, and glorify god as much as possible. there
are vast chasms between where i stand/do and where i could be/could do in each
of those areas. and many are called, few are chosen simply compounds the doubt.
yes os i can understand that.
<THX`> and
what have you found so far?
<-- RocketMan has quit (...on to other things....)
<shuZZZ> ShuZZZ...aka shoes....:)
<david> that
it's true! That Christ is alive
<DrOakley> Tremendous consistency and eternal
life.
<david> and
that He's God
<shuZZZ> but also shu sleeping..:)
<SpideyGeek> Amen, on all accounts :-)
<THX`> thought
he was the son of god?
<david> He's
God, THX, that requires a certain realignment of priorities
<CollarMan> ShuSnorZ
<david> "Son
of" is an idiom.
<OS_X> ~nas
John 5:18-23
<shuZZZ> Hey, no I
don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Gutenberg> OS_X: Please limit your request to
5 verses.
<shuZZZ> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<-- shuZZZ has quit ()
<CollarMan> Cuttin' wood...
<Biblicist> CollarMan, are those the new brand
of shoes a Neiman Marcus?
<OS_X> ~nas
john 5:18-22
<david> In
Jewish thought the Son has all the priorities and wants and desires and
responsibilities of the Father
<Gutenberg> John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the
more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was
calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless [it
is] something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these
things the Son also does in like manner. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> John 5:20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all
things that He Himself is doing; and [the Father] will show Him greater works
than these, so that you will marvel. (NASB)
--> Keith (Keith@ip68-109-129-91.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian
<Gutenberg> John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives
them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has
given all judgment to the Son, (NASB)
<OS_X> THX
- see above on what 'Son of God' means.
<david> soif
the Father's a baker the son is a baker
<johnMark> ~nas Is. 63:14
<Gutenberg> johnMark: Sorry, I don't understand your
request.
-DrOakley- You
know, a thought just hit me....back when I first started ircing we had a rule
about having no more than three ops opped at any one time just to keep from
lookiing too "top heavy." Might be a good idea. Any thoughts? ()<Ops Only>()
<johnMark> ~nas Isa. 63:14
<Gutenberg> Isaiah 63:14 As the cattle which go down into the valley, The
Spirit of the LORD gave them rest. So You led Your people, To make for Yourself
a glorious name. (NASB)
<david> so
much so that a common Jewish insult is to call you "Son of a Pig" ie
"you're so much like a pig you must be a pig"
--- Biblicist removes channel operator status from Biblicist
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 19:21-27
<Gutenberg> Romanist: Please limit your request to 5
verses.
<david> sowhen
Jesus is called the "Son" he's saying that He's God
--- -op :Unknown command
<CollarMan> Like Dr.O said, a serious survey thru John and
one's view of Christ changes dramatically..
--- Biblicist is now known as Gobbler
<johnMark> Gutenberg is working overtime
<david> yea,
John lays it out very clearly
--- OS_X
removes channel operator status from OS_X
<CollarMan> Oh, that Biblicist!
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 19:21-24
<Gobbler> lol
<DrOakley> I asked for comments, not a mass
de-opping!!! :-)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete,
go [and] sell your possessions and give to [the] poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went
away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to
you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (NASB)
<OS_X> ROFL
<CollarMan> How's the better half?
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to
go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of
God." (NASB)
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 19:25-27
<THX`> john
must be some dude then.
--- DrOakley removes channel operator status from DrOakley
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard [this], they were very
astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:26 And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With
people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (NASB)
--- DrOakley is now known as DrOakXP
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left
everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)
<Gobbler> We know what ou meant!
<Gobbler> you
<CollarMan> He was someone dear to our Lord..
<OS_X> Yeah,
what Gobbler said!
<OS_X> lol
<Romanist> os- "we have left everything and
followed You"
<Romanist> have you done this, have i?
<Romanist> i certainly havent
<david> yeah,
he was some dude, and Jesus more than Him, by a long shot
<OS_X> ~nas
Matt. 19:28-30
<CollarMan> THX: How about your thoughts on John after a
review?
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you,
that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit
on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
twelve tribes of Israel. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or
sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will
receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:30 "But many [who are] first will be last; and
[the] last, first. (NASB)
<OS_X> Ahhh.
<CollarMan> THX: What was it about Jesus of Nazareth that
changed 12 men radically?
<david> yeah,
THX. Go and read Johnand let usknow what you think
<david> I'd
be interested
<OS_X> Romanist,
take a look back at the start of that passage.
<david> to
see what impression it has on you
<CollarMan> THX: Made these men leave what they had...
<CollarMan> THX:
Made them tell others about this carpenter from Galilee...
<OS_X> ~nas
Matt. 19:16-20
<CollarMan> THX:
To the point of death, torture and ridicule...
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what
good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about
what is good? There is [only] One who is good; but if you wish to enter into
life, keep the commandments." (NASB)
<THX`> do
i have to read it? its pretty late and im tired. lol
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:18 [Then] he said to Him, "Which ones?" And
Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY;
YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR
NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I
have kept; what am I still lacking?" (NASB)
<david> take
your time
<david> get
backto us
<OS_X> Do
you really believe the rich young ruler had kept ALL of these commandments from
his youth ?
<CollarMan> THX:
Take it a bit at a time...
<DrOakXP> THX: I will pray that you will not forget our suggestion to read
the work.
<CollarMan> THX:
It took the disciples 3 years to realize the magnitude of His Person..
<THX`> so
john you say huh?
<Romanist> no one could os
<THX`> what
about the other three nt gospels then?
<david> they're
also good!!
<CollarMan> THX:
Even then, the Creator provided His own Spirit to open their hearts,
minds & souls..
<DrOakXP> We were suggesting an easy starting
place. :-)
<OS_X> So
Romanist, what makes you think that you can NOW ?
<david> but
John isslightly different in approach
<david> choose
one and read it, maybe John
<THX`> in
the beginning was the word and all that... also good?
<Romanist> i never said i can become sinless in this
life os
<CollarMan> THX:
I can assure you, after reading John, you'll crave to sit at the foot of
Christ as Matthew, Mark & Luke provide insight..
<david> that's
John, THX
<david> ~nas
john 1:1
<Gutenberg> John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. (NASB)
<Romanist> but i surely can do more for my neighbor
and more to glorify god than i am presently
<CollarMan> THX:
There's good reason John writes the way he does...
<THX`> oh.
then i learnt that all by rote when i was at school.
<david> and
then he spends the rest of the gospel explaining who the Word is
<Romanist> in fact, i should "leave
everything"
<CollarMan> THX:
You wil begin to understand as John reveals the real character of
Jesus...
<OS_X> did
Peter really leave everything ?
<Romanist> could the rich man leave his riches?
<david> go
for it THX
<david> then
get back to us and tell us what you think!!!
<OS_X> Keep
in mind, the same emphaticness that Peter said 'Lord, we've left everything for
You' was the same emphaticness that he said 'Lord, I'll never betray you!'
<CollarMan> OS_X: Yes, maybe at first for the wrong reasons...but after Christ
restored him, Peter understood and proved he did at Pentacost...
* david
is going to return to his evangelicalism book
<OS_X> Sure.
He left material things.
<david> good
to chat to you, THX
<CollarMan> OS_X: When we use our own strength and might instead of trusting
by faith in our Lord, we would trip just as much...
<david> yougot
a real name?
<OS_X> If
you really want to be 'technical', taking the two conditions that Jesus put
forth in the Matthew passage, you must keep *all* of the commandments perfectly
AND leave everything you have to follow Jesus. Now who can do this perfectly,
Romanist ?
<THX`> likewise
david.
<david> is
there a real name behind the alias?
<THX`> most
ppl call me doc.
<-- Hobster has quit (Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his
righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in
the person justified, but is)
<CollarMan> Be right back...
<Romanist> nobody os-but ive never said we can do it
perfectly-just we should be making the greatest possible effort
<OS_X> how
much is that Romanist ?
--- david is now known as davidreads
<OS_X> How
much is enough to be declared just before God ?
<mon-lurx> Unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the Pharisees....
<Romanist> again im not saying any amount of work
can satisfy god.
<OS_X> ~nas
Matt 5:28
<THX`> do
ppl go on irl names in here then?
<Gutenberg> Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman
with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NASB)
<OS_X> oops.
wrong verse.
<OS_X> ~nas
Matt. 5:48
<Gutenberg> Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your
heavenly Father is perfect. (NASB)
<davidreads> lots of aliases but we mostly know each other's
names
<davidreads> if you don't want to tell us then that's ok but
I think it's more friendly
* OS_X
thinks everyone knows my real name, but still calls me X anyway...LOL
<SpideyGeek> Yes, Kerry :-)
<THX`> well,
im chas. but everyone online calls me doc.
<OS_X> Thank
you Jules :)
* davidreads
's real name is THX but everyone calls him David :-)
<SpideyGeek> :-D
<SpideyGeek> LOL, david
<THX`> which
i kinda like.
<davidreads> ok chas, look forward to hearing from you after
you have a read.
<OS_X> I'll
have to call Chas Chas. :) I'm too used to calling Doc Doc.
<DrOakXP> :-)
<DrOakXP> Why do folks call you doc,
THX? :-)
<THX`> cuz
i am one.
<SpideyGeek> That's because he is THE Doc :-D
<DrOakXP> Medical?
<THX`> yeah.
<OS_X> Kewl!
<davidreads> cool, I have this ulcer in my....
<SpideyGeek> lol
* OS_X
thought he was a sound technician at first....
<Gobbler> Hey, THX, I got this pain...;-)
<davidreads> he's got a pain now...
<SpideyGeek> There ya go... now you do ;-)
<davidreads> beat ya to it
<Gobbler> Now I REALLY ogt this pain.
<davidreads> :-)
<SpideyGeek> lol
<davidreads> too slow gobbler
<davidreads> way too slow
<THX`> well,
x is right. i AM into sound.
<THX`> hence
the nick.
<davidreads> ok, I'm off - be back later
<OS_X> kewl.
:)
* THX`
is the most excellent cinema sound system from lucasfilm.
* OS_X
still chuckles at the mass de-opping....
<Gobbler> Gee, and here I thought you were
just thankful...how naive I must be
<THX`> cuz
im severely into movies. thats why.
* OS_X
loves to annoy neighbors by turning up both 200 watt subs when the movie starts
on DVD and the THX sound comes on
<OS_X> Feel
the room rumble!
<tiredofNJ> Sound rocks. :)
<THX`> yes,
but home thx is nothing like the real cinema thx.
<OS_X> THX
- this is true.
<tiredofNJ> I use Grados on my laptop.
<SpideyGeek> tired - How is that?
<THX`> which
is why im against home systems. i watch everything at the cinema.
<SpideyGeek> Cakewalk is *tough*...
<Gobbler> CollarMan, you still here?
<tiredofNJ> SG: You use Cakewalk?
<OS_X> LOl
- we part ways there. I like the cinema, but I'm eventually going to have th
e*perfect* system at home.
<SpideyGeek> tired - I'm playing with it... got a demo
version I'm trying.
<THX`> nah,
you cant recreate the acoustics of an auditorium at home.
<OS_X> cakewalk
is for wussies. :) I use FINALE.
<Gobbler> An Eperfect system?
<tiredofNJ> I had Cakewalk for a while, back in
'99 ... I bought a MIDI keyboard and everything.
<SpideyGeek> Cakewalk FruityLoops 3, to be exact.
<OS_X> THX
- you can if you have an auditorium built onto the side of your house. LOL
<Theophorus> 'Yeah, Cakewalk is just that once you get used
to it.
<CollarMan> Had to go for a bit...back..
<Theophorus> I used to use the full version.
<tiredofNJ> Ohh, FruityLoops.
<tiredofNJ> My dad has Sonar on his.
<THX`> with
1200 seats and a full cinemascope screen?
<tiredofNJ> But no keyboard ... he also can't
play. *scratches head*
<OS_X> THX
- if I had the money, I would.
<THX`> man,
id love to have that.
<tiredofNJ> I used it back when it was just
MIDI only with SoundFonts and stuff.
<SpideyGeek> I need to find something else, though... Idon't
have the time to figure FruityLoops out :-)
<OS_X> Romanist,
you still there, ol buddy ?
<Theophorus> Yes, me too, tired.
<tiredofNJ> lol, why does everyone compose sound?
<tiredofNJ> I was into it after years of piano
lessons and really getting into midi files for a while.
<THX`> i
still remember the days when plain midi came out, with just the three sockets
marked in/out/thru...
<Theophorus> Just midi, but I ventured into Cakewalk
ProAudio.
<THX`> how
things have changed now, with general midi 2 and shit like that.
--- SpideyGeek sets ban on
THX`!*courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net
<-- SpideyGeek has kicked THX` from
#prosapologian (Profanity is for those who lack the intelligence to express
themselves by any other means.)
--- SpideyGeek removes ban on
THX`!*courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net
<Theophorus> My computer wasn't fast enough to sync the
audio data.
<SpideyGeek> Woops
<Theophorus> I could never get it synced.
--> THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #prosapologian
<THX`> wow.
harsh bot.
<Theophorus> lol
<OS_X> ROFL
<buzz> lol
<THX`> harsh
script. not bot.
<tiredofNJ> Well, really, I think "He
meant to say shirt" isn't gonna fly with that one. ;)
<OS_X> SpideyBorg...LOL
<SpideyGeek> Sorry, THX... just try to watch the language.
;-)
<DrOakXP> My script. This *is* a Christian channel. :-)
<THX`> yeah,
guess it is. sorry,
<DrOakXP> :-)
<OS_X> We
forgive ya.
<tiredofNJ> How does General Midi 2 differ?
<THX`> so
as i was saying... general midi 2 and shirt...
<THX`> all
too fancy these days.
<OS_X> Just
respect the channel :)
<tiredofNJ> I haven't messed around with a
soundcard since the SB Live.
<tiredofNJ> Which was a good one in its own
right.
<THX`> i
still have my trusty roland juno 106.
<tiredofNJ> Oh, wait, my dad had a Roland card
at one point, it was a full-length one.
<tiredofNJ> The thing was enormous.
<THX`> nah,
having rack mounts is still not the same as having the actual keyboards.
<tiredofNJ> My piano teacher had several Roland
keyboards, starting with the one with the MT-100 external sequencer ...
<Romanist> os yes-sorry to hound you-but what you
just said-if i had the money i would. i have the same thought with many things.
but shouldnt we forego luxuries to invest them in glorifying god? if i really
saw christ in the hungry,naked, imprisoned etc. wouldnt i just want to live on
the bare minimum and devote all resources and as much time as possible to
charity? shouldnt i be YEARNING to sacrifice time, money, freedom, safety etc
for the kingdom of God?
<tiredofNJ> Moved up through the years,
naturally.
<Romanist> this i do not experience
<tiredofNJ> That thing was a pain, proprietary
datadisk format ... ew ...
<THX`> yeah.
if he stuck with roland, he would have moved to the roland d50.
<tiredofNJ> She stuck with them forever, yeah,
dunno what she has now.
<OS_X> np
romanist. Nothing wrong with
having luxuries. The problem comes when luxuries have YOU.
<tiredofNJ> Eventually they had the drives
built in ... last keyboard I used like that was a friend's Korg.
<OS_X> If
the Lord so leads me to give above my tithe, then yes I will.
<THX`> yeah,
i kinda lost touch after the 80s.
<THX`> dunno
what happened to synthesis technology after that.
<OS_X> Some
have been gifted with the gift of mercy - others have to learn. :) Usually folks with the gift of mercy
tend to have either a whole lot of money or not enough money (by our
standards).
* tiredofNJ
breaks out his Casiotone MT-36.
<THX`> yamaha
dx7 and roland d50 were the last keyboards i used.
<OS_X> But
God provides for them to do what He calls them to do.
<OS_X> Pat
Robertson, despite some of his horrid theology, has utilized the money he gets
to feed the poor and provide aid for folks in Africa in impoverished nations.
<Romanist> yes and i could use the money i spent on
say a computer to go feed a homeless man i walk by every day for a month
<Romanist> but i dont
<OS_X> A
family I heard on Focus on the Family last night, was middle class, but they
adopted SIX kids - AT LEAST - and one of them had heart issues that required
over 100k in surgery.
<Romanist> yes thats sacrifice os
<OS_X> But
the Lord provided for them to have the surgery for free. :)
<Romanist> which is the mark of a true christian
<OS_X> Let's
retool your question.
<Theophorus> Don't others sacrifice?
<THX`> what
about sibelius? any of you guys use that?
<Theophorus> Non-Christians sacrifice.
<Romanist> theo-non christians? sure
<OS_X> I
use Finale. Haven't played with Sibelius much.
<OS_X> <-----music
teacher in a high school.
<Romanist> one of the marks of a true christian i
shoulda said
<Theophorus> Yes, but marks not exclusive to Christianity.
<Theophorus> Even the works of a Christian are riddled with
sin and unbelief.
<THX`> so
you teach music huh?
<OS_X> The
money I could spend on a computer because the Lord is calling me to do online
evangelism and expand a ministry He has put on my heart vs taking that money
feeding a homeless man. I feel convinced the Lord has called me to do the
first, not the second. Am I not a true Christian ?
<OS_X> Yep.
B.S. is in Music Ed.
<Theophorus> LOL
<Theophorus> I love that "B.S."
<THX`> i
used to play for sinfonia medica, the combined london medical schools
orchestra.
<Theophorus> LOL
<Romanist> certainly os-i meant the computer as a
secular tool
<OS_X> addendum
- I feel convinced after prayer and talking with other believers - AND the fact
that i'd been praying for a new computer because my old one is ancient and
limits me.
<Keith> I
have no musical ability
<THX`> hey,
if god gives you a new puter, can you get him to give me one too?
<OS_X> Bachelor
of Science. LOL
<THX`> i
need another box for my lan.
<OS_X> Anyone
got a spare router lying around ? :)
<DrOakXP> []__[]__[]__ Good Evening, Keith ! __[]__[]__[]
<THX`> i
have a router, but not spare... am using it right now!
<Keith> Hi
DrO
* DrOakXP
teaches Keith to use COLOR
<DrOakXP> ()()()()()()()()() COLOR IS GOOD. ()()()()()()()()()
<Keith> computer
network router, or wood router?(not that I have either one)
<DrOakXP> ()()() Keith wears pajamas to work. ()()()
<Keith> ??
<Keith> ??
<OS_X> Okay
Romanist - the Lord blesses me with some funds and I take them to build a home
theatre for my family so that my wife and kids will be blessed (no I"m not
married yet!) and enjoy themselves.
<Keith> (())
<THX`> adsl
router.
<SpideyGeek> ()()() CRISP MEAT BURRITOS! ()()()
<OS_X> Does
this not make me a Christian ?
<Keith> something
about green burritos seems fitting
<OS_X> or
rather, does this demarcate me as not being a Christian ?
* OS_X
needs to head to sleep soon.
<Romanist> why dont you take your family to a day
laborer parking lot and feed them with those funds while spreading the gospel
<Romanist> wouldnt that be more glorifying to god?
<SpideyGeek> "¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼Èt7DS Keith , congrats
on being our 5000th visitor! You will recieve an all expense paid trip to Upper
Slobovia !! t7DS"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼
<DrOakXP> Why doesn't the Pope sell his gold
and jewels and do the same thing, Romanist?
<DrOakXP> :-)
<Romanist> indeed dro
<Romanist> absolutely indeed
<Keith> I
will enjoy that, as I am a slob
<OS_X> What
if my family doesn' t feel called to go there nor do I feel called to take them
there yet, as the spiritual head of my household ?
<OS_X> What
if I feel that our calling is elsewhere in another ministry ?
<THX`> my
calling is the kitchen. i need food.
<THX`> been
interesting talking to you lot.
<Romanist> and you dont think somewhere/sometime
those funds would be better served in another capacity in glorifying god rather
than building a home theater system?
<OS_X> Where
does it say that I can't have nice things for my family with the money that the
Lord has blessed me with a job to earn, is gracious enough to allow me to keep
90 % (50% after taxes) ?
<SpideyGeek> Have a good evening, THX`
<THX`> have
many interests in common.
<THX`> like
cinema and electronic music.
<SpideyGeek> :-)
<OS_X> Evenin'
THX. Drop back through again. :)
<THX`> and
a fellow doctor here too.
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 19:27
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left
everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)
<Romanist> sacrifice is the issue
<OS_X> Or
what rule is there that says I can't take that money and as a show of affection
to my wife, buy her a $5k diamond ring ?
<THX`> whats
your specialty dr o?
<DrOakXP> Theology. :-)
<THX`> ok.
<Keith> I
think I'm getting the hang of this
<THX`> well,
as arnie says... ill be back.
<Theophorus> So sacrifice is necessary to receive
forgiveness, Romanist?
* THX`
out. getting food.
<mon-lurx> Prove it, Keith
<-- THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has left #prosapologian
<Romanist> no but its a one of the good signs of
election
<Keith> Prove what?
<Keith> :)
--> J637 (~John@host-66-81-123-193.rev.o1.com) has joined #prosapologian
<DrOakXP> ()()() Newbies are so cute. ()()()
<mon-lurx> ooooooooooo
<Theophorus> Wow, you sound like a puritan, Romanist.
<Theophorus> ;-)
<Keith> I'm
not a newbie, just an ignorantbie
<OS_X> Is
it ? Where ?
<OS_X> ~nas
Hosea 6:7
<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There
they have dealt treacherously against Me. (NASB)
<Theophorus> :-)
<Romanist> i need to read some of the puritans. they
dont wishy-wash stuff
<OS_X> last
I checked, our good works didn't amount for much.
<OS_X> ~nas
Is 64:6
<Gutenberg> OS_X: Sorry, I don't understand
your request.
<J637> Theo
are you related to cowpoke
--- Gutenberg removes ban on
*!*@195.14.143.79
* DrOakXP
screams as he realizes he has an entire set of papers he forgot all about.
* DrOakXP
sighs.
<OS_X> ~nas
isaiah 64:6
<Theophorus> J6
<Theophorus> No.
<Gutenberg> Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And
all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a
leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (NASB)
<Theophorus> LOL
<Theophorus> He wishes.
<Keith> DrO,
want us to help you grade them?
<Keith> LOL,
we will grade them on the relativistic scale.
<DrOakXP> Yeah, that would be fun.
<Keith> whatever
grade you want, just put it on the front
<Romanist> okay so you think god might rather you spend 5k on a ring than use it to
help the homeless or sick or lonely or jailed or spread His Word etc
<J637> Well
cowpoet has a brother with a web site called theocentric
<buzz> DrOakXP
- Just sent ya an E-mail.
<OS_X> I
didn't say that. You did.
<DrOakXP> OK.
<tiredofNJ> I give this paper a 65 because the
other side has a good case too.
<OS_X> You're
presenting a false dichotomy.
<OS_X> Two
options when there's actually three or more options.
<kletois> DrO! you survived your 'upgrade' to
XP!! (congratulations?)
* buzz
already had XP.
<DrOakXP> Yes, I did, kletois.
<DrOakXP> Not without a few hiccups, but all
taken care of.
<OS_X> That
be the case, why don't you take your computer and donate it to a local school
? Wouldn't that be more glorifying
to God ?
<OS_X> Than
say.... keeping it at home and using it for your own personal entertainment ?
<Theophorus> J6: No, I'm not the guy.
<Theophorus> :-)
<Theophorus> XP is great.
<OS_X> Do
you really need it ? What's wrong with a typewriter ? Isn't there some poor
school system or kid in the ghetto that wishes he had a computer ?
<J637> ok
--> MfiboLrx^ (Mfibo_@1Cust185.tnt1.covington.la.da.uu.net) has joined #prosapologian
<Romanist> os exactly
<Romanist> thats precisely what i should do
--- Received a CTCP Sound jambali.mid
from DrOakXP
* OS_X
notes that if Romanist suddenly doesn't show up anymore, we know why.
<Romanist> but i wont
<Romanist> lol
<OS_X> Why
not ?
* MfiboLrx^
does a jig dance
<OS_X> Fibbster!
<MfiboLrx^> Good evening /morning :)
<SpideyGeek> Mfibbinatorus Maximus!
<Romanist> because im a slave to my own wants and
desires
<OS_X> too
easy.
<MfiboLrx^> I'm one step closer now to my laptop
replacement :)
* MfiboLrx^
takes up donations
<MfiboLrx^> <g>
* OS_X
throws penny @ MfiboLrx^
<Romanist> i could give this away and go the library
to continue withh all my net/work activities. i dont because i enjoy the
convenience and privacy
<MfiboLrx^> merci
<Theophorus> Fibo
<MfiboLrx^> yo Theo bro :)
--- dhRehearse is now known as dharp
<OS_X> Desires
for things for entertainment and personal satisfaction aren't bad,
Romanist. In the book of Acts, we
don't find Lydia giving up her business and travelling with Paul and company.
<buzz> Oh
brother, when Christ said that a
man must deny himself daily, He wasn't talking about material possessions. Sheesh
<OS_X> But
she *does* use the luxury of having a big house to have believers meet there on
occasion.
<Romanist> buzz what did peter mean when he said
this?
<mon-lurx> buzz :)
<Romanist> ~nas Mat. 19:27
<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left
everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)
<OS_X> I'm
sure she also *enjoyed* having her nice big house and the money she earned from
work.
* Keith
wonders about owning two cars
<-- Shade has quit (:-D)
* DrOakXP
notes his eyes are starting to get fuzzy....
* DrOakXP
tries to shave them.
--- dharp is now known as dhLurx
* OS_X
's eyes are already dropping.
<DrOakXP> Too much small print. Ack.
<OS_X> DOES
THIS HELP ?
<Keith> better
than fuzzy teeth
* DrOakXP
bites Keith.
<SpideyGeek> Here we go...
<Romanist> os right so any possession i have i
should do my best to use it to glorify god. this could be by giving it away but
also by keeping it and using it in some other manner
<SpideyGeek> Does this help?
<Keith> I
wasn't refrring to anyone specific
<DrOakXP> No, since I default to bold, so
those are non-bold. :-)
<OS_X> Hmmm.
I think he's getting it a bit.
<SpideyGeek> OH!
<SpideyGeek> lol
* DrOakXP
bites Keith for being dishonest.
<Romanist> but i wasnt debating that
<-- J637 has quit ()
<Keith> moi?
dishonest?
<OS_X> But
even past all that, we come back to the fundamental question regarding your
good works Romanist.
<OS_X> You
agree that no amount of good works can save or keep you saved.
<buzz> Romanist
- Umm, Job was wealthy, had lots of possession, a large family, yet God called
him blameless. There's nothing
wrong with having possessions.
<OS_X> yet
you worry about not doing enough of them so there is 'evidence' that you are
elect
<Romanist> where is the balance between enjoyment
and sacrifice
<SpideyGeek> ... Or at least get hairy teeth....
<OS_X> Romanist
- read what buzz just wrote.
<buzz> Depriving
oneself of things and living in a monestary never saved anyone.
<Theophorus> Amen, buzz.
<OS_X> and
read again what Buzz just wrote.
<Romanist> this is true buzz
<buzz> It's
one thing to have possessions, it's quite another to live to get them.
<OS_X> Sometimes
the Lord blesses folks with a new computer @ home so they can get their work
done.
<OS_X> *shock*
<OS_X> and
earn money to take care of their family.
<OS_X> God
is glorified in the fact that the person acknowledges and realizes that the
computer is a blessing from God and that it helps to provide for his 'daily
bread' to take care of himself and his family.
<buzz> Oh,
and there's nothing wrong with personal entertainment. Living a joyless life goes against
Scripture.
<OS_X> Now
when that computer starts to become a 'god' (i.e.- daddy yells at the kids
'STAY AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!'), then we have problems.
<Keith> goodnight
everyone
<-- Keith (Keith@ip68-109-129-91.ph.ph.cox.net) has left #prosapologian
<OS_X> When
the computer becomes more important than people, something's wrong.
<Romanist> certainly os
<OS_X> Likewise,
a husband spending that 5k on a ring for his wife is fully justified in doing
so.
<-- sam (~samnj@67.85.165.116) has left #prosapologian
<OS_X> He's
doing so to follow the commandment of scripture and HONOR HIS WIFE.
<OS_X> While
he can never show her the full gift of what she is worth to him, this can serve
as a visible reminder and when she looks at her hand, it brings her joy and
reminds her of the love of her husband.
<OS_X> Completely
Biblical.
<MfiboLrx^> 5K?
<MfiboLrx^> hmmmmmmmmm
<OS_X> Rough
figure.
<mon-lurx> Preach it Brother OS
<mon-lurx> hehehe
<OS_X> LOL
@ Mon.
<OS_X> Be
nice to Theo.
* mon-lurx
notes that on the other hand it is not good for a wife to covet such an object
and that she was merely joking
<mon-lurx> hehe
<OS_X> :)
* buzz
looks at that small puny thing on mon's finger.
<mon-lurx> HEY!
<OS_X> ROFL
<buzz> lol
* mon-lurx
looks at her ring with great admiration :)
<StJohnCalv> mon-lurx
<StJohnCalv> MicahSlayso
<StJohnCalv> mon-lurx
<mon-lurx> SJC!
<OS_X> So
'sacrifice' and monasticism really don't amount to much, truth be told. They
have an APPEARANCE of godliness.
* Gobbler
goes to check up on his wife and heads out...night all!
<Romanist> you dont consider sacrifice an essential
part of the christian life?
<CollarMan> ?
<buzz> OS_X - Yes, and Paul had some
comments on that too.
<OS_X> But
even past all that, we come back to the fundamental question regarding your
good works Romanist.
<mon-lurx> Nite, Gobb! Hugs to Koiny
<-- CollarMan has quit (Leaving)
<MfiboLrx^> ~nas Col 2:20-23
<Gobbler> :-)
<buzz> gn
Gobb
<-- Gobbler has quit ()
<Gutenberg> Col. 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles
of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself
to decrees, such as, (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Col. 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
(NASB)
<Gutenberg> Col. 2:22 (which all [refer] [to] things destined to perish with
use)-- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Col. 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance
of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the
body, [but are] of no value against fleshly indulgence. (NASB)
<MfiboLrx^> Amen :)
<Romanist> scripture commends fasting
<OS_X> If
no amount of good works can save or keep you saved, then you are inconsistently
relying on your good works as evidence of your election and then trying to
increase them by engaging in monastic behavior.
<-- Bradford (VanTil@ACC15F16.ipt.aol.com) has left #prosapologian
<buzz> Romanist
- Fasting in private.
<Theophorus> Amen is right.
<Theophorus> Depriving the body of fine brew.
<Romanist> buzz yes of course. modesty and humility
are other signs of a christian
<Theophorus> Evil.
<buzz> Romanist
- Modesty and humility have nothing to do with riches.
<OS_X> So
again, what is the ground of your justification before God ? Christ's shed
blood alone apart from works or Christs' shed blood plus your good works ?
<OS_X> Duane
Magnani of Witness, Inc. is a multimillionaire - a very quiet one. Very humble
dude and easy to talk to.
<Romanist> well weve come full circle. my answers
the same as before
<OS_X> Stephen
Speilberg dresses very modestly - more like he earns 35k per year than his
actual worth.
<OS_X> Is
Speilberg a professing Christian in any way ?
<buzz> OS_X - Nope
<Romanist> os you know i didnt say it was the
exclusive marks of a christian
<Romanist> i was referring to buzz's comment on
fasting
<OS_X> See,
you can only trust fruit as far as the tree it comes off of.
<buzz> Romanist
- Jesus said to fast in private, not in public.
<OS_X> There's
plenty of folks in the visible church who believe in Christ + My works =
Salvation who think that their good works are evidence of their salvation.
<buzz> And
fasting has nothing to do with humility nor modesty.
<Romanist> buzz right i agree. somebody who does it
publicly to show off or what have you is of course in error
<OS_X> ~nas
matt. 6:16-18
<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:16 "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face
as the hypocrites [do], for they neglect their appearance so that they will be
noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their
reward in full. (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and
wash your face (NASB)
<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:18 so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but
by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees [what is done] in
secret will reward you. (NASB)
<OS_X> See,
you can only trust fruit as far as the tree it comes off of.
<OS_X> There's
plenty of folks in the visible church who believe in Christ + My works =
Salvation who think that their good works are evidence of their salvation.
<Romanist> well theyre wrong
<OS_X> And
while the fruit of both trees *looks* similar, upon closer inspection you find
that the other is riddled with fruitflies and maggots.
--- amylooz is now known as AmySnooze
<OS_X> So
out of faith alone in Christ alone
or faith in Christ + good works, you're picking faith alone ? ?(that is,
faith apart from works)
<OS_X> Just
trying to be clear.
* OS_X
has to be up in 4.5 hours.
* kletois
merely says goodnite to amy, and isnt trying to start a conversation with her.
<AmySnooze> goodnite everyone
<OS_X> brb...getting
water to drink....
<OS_X> G'nite
Amy.
<SpideyGeek> Niters, Amy! *muah*
<buzz> gn
amy
<kletois> nite amy
<Romanist> os-i have been considering/leaning
to the reformed understanding of salvation for a few months now-thats why ive
not attended mass. but im still examining/reflecting on the matter. and with
that ive got to get to bed. i appreciate this conversation os_x (and others who
chimed in). it was very worthwhile. ill dwell on it and maybe well pick up on
it later. sorry to keep you up os_x. cheers all.
<-- Romanist has quit ()
<SpideyGeek> Lord, draw Romanist to your Truth and your
Gospel, if be your will...
<buzz> Amen
<OS_X> that
was SOOOOOO kewl. Amen. Thanks Lord.
<OS_X> I
love having the opportunity to serve. :)
<SpideyGeek> :-)
* OS_X
saves this as a log.
<-- hedgey78aw has quit (Read error to hedgey78aw[208.198.12.57]: Connection
reset by peer)
<buzz> We
just remember that it is God who controls even evangelism. =)
<MfiboLrx^> ... and some said we will hear you again on
this matter :)
* AmySnooze
has just this very minute stumbled in and guesses much grace has been shown
here tonite.. good job guys!