<Romanist>  hmm well ill throw out a question-do you all think you cooperate in your sanctification in a way that you dont cooperate in justification (not meaning you believe in synergy in justification of course-just that properly nuanced you would agree with statements that god does not justify us without our consent and such)?

    <wonky>   Ohh that is sweet DrO and I are using the same windowblinds theme

<johnMark>  define cooperate?

<CalvinDude>  Whoo-hoo!  I have a screen shot of my desktop too now!  http://www.peterpike.com/screenshot.jpg

<SpideyGeek> rofl!!!!

<SpideyGeek> It's... the BSoD (tm)!

<DrOakafk>  LOL

    <wonky>   DrO and I must be linked deep in our psyches

<Romanist>  respond to gods grace in your sanctification. for instance, within sanctification you can resist god's grace by sinning no?

<DrOakafk>  wonky:  Sort of like in Twins, huh?

                 *   CalvinDude has gotten so many of the BSoD (tm)'s...and that's just today.

                 *   JoelYrick is glad that he deleted that sound!

    <wonky>   I do look sorta like Arnold but aren't you being alittle hard on yourself

<DrOakafk>  I'm going to go lift now.  :-)

<DrOakafk>  ()()()  James is Away. Lord willing, he will return. :) ()()()

              <--   Canterbury (canterbury@dialup-203-113-253-87.Hobart.netspace.net.au) has left #prosapologian

<CalvinDude>  Better not levitate...

<StJohnCalv> God Bless DrOakafk

                 *   OS_Xtypes is ashamed to show his desktop.

<OS_Xtypes> It's cluttered with EVERYTHING.

<amylooz>   DrOak... muah ! =) sleep well bro...

<SpideyGeek> Bye, Doc!

    <pquick>   Romanist:  I'm sure we differentiate between justification and sanctification much more than the RCC does

<amylooz>   So... I wonder why those Honda Elements are so inexpensive...

                 *   JoelYrick notes that Wayne Grudem says that Sanctification is a cooperation unlike Justification- and I wasn't sure if I agreed

<JoelYrick>   and he =P

<Romanist>  of course pquick-thats why im asking your viewpoint

<Romanist>  is wayne grudem reformed?

<Romanist>  i havent heard of him sorry

<JoelYrick>   yes Reformed Baptist

    <pquick>   Romanist:  Wayne Grudem is a "quasi" reformed baptist -- he went to school at a reformed seminary, is a baptist, but leans towards charismaticism

<Romanist>  okay

<Romanist>  so you guys would disagree with his and my statement?

<JoelYrick>   so because he leans towards charismaticism he's not fully reformed, or is there another reason?

    <pquick>   Romanist: he's the author of a fairly recent Protestant Systematic Theology

               ---   You are now known as DrEvil

    <pquick>   Joel:  yeah, kinda.  labels are tricky things

      <DrEvil>   Wayne Grudem is semi-reformed.

      <DrEvil>   He's quasi-reformed.

      <DrEvil>   He's the margarine of reformed.

<JoelYrick>   I'm wanting to say that its no more of a cooperation than Justification, but I don't know

                 *   JoelYrick slaps DrEvil around a bit with a Taco Bell hard shell taco

                 *   CalvinDude uploads a pic of his REAL desktop....

      <DrEvil>   He's the diet coke of reformed - just one calorie, not reformed enough!

<StJohnCalv> JoelYrick, look at your pm.

<SpideyGeek> LOL, X

    <pquick>   Funny, X

      <DrEvil>   Y'know Joel, that's not something one dude should say to another dude..yeah..

<CalvinDude>  DUDE...

<CalvinDude>  D()()()()()D!

<SpideyGeek> DUUUUUUUUUUUDE!

<SpideyGeek> d00d!

      <DrEvil>   dŸd!

<SpideyGeek> lol]

<SpideyGeek> lol

<CalvinDude>  This is sooooooooooo....sloooooo                   w.

               ---   You are now known as OS_Xtypes

    <pquick>   Romanist:  It doesn't seem like this channel really wants to debate a Roman Catholic on Justification / Sanctification right now.  It's not that we are ignoring you...

<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--didn't you mean: þ+¾†Œ£€–’‰Ž

                 *   JoelYrick would very much like to get into the issue

    <pquick>   Romanist:  Have you listened to any of Dr. James Whites debates with Catholic apologists on these topics?

<JenOPCer>  seems like it would be a lot of hairsplitting

<johnMark>  Grudem is a 5-pointer who beleives in the gifts

<Romanist>  thats cool pquick-btw im not looking to debate-im just wanting to get a firmer handle on the reformed perspective. yes i should go out and read some books and d/l some debates but i just thought id ask here

    <pquick>   cool, Romanist.  do you consider yourself a Catholic apologist of sorts?

    <Romanist>  pquick-not at all

<JoelYrick>   Romanist: <StJohnCalv> Santification is synergistic.

<OS_Xtypes> Stop instigating, Joel :p

<CalvinDude>  Nonsense.  By all means, instigate.

                 *   OS_Xtypes slaps JoelYrick around a bit with a boston creme pie

    <pquick>   Sanctification is synergistic -- meaning we do cooperate with God

    <pquick>   right, Joel?

<JoelYrick>   lol

<OS_Xtypes> Santification ?

<JoelYrick>   I don't know, but I was able to pull it out of SJC in PM

<StJohnCalv> sorry for the mis spelling

<StJohnCalv> lol

<CalvinDude>  Mmmmm....now I'm getting hungry.

     <theist>   who is Peter Pike?

<StJohnCalv> I am doing 6 things at once.

<cowpoet>   Yes, me and Micah had a blast!

<CalvinDude>  theist--wouldn't you like to know.

<johnMark>  yeah, WHO is Peter Pike?

              -->   Shade (shade@216.40.231.204) has joined #prosapologian

<JoelYrick>   Santification- the act of becoming Santa

     <theist>   CalvinDude: well...uhhhh....yeah

    <pquick>   get me some, CD    crackers? ice cream?

<OS_Xtypes> Peter Pike - some lamer who runs a website or two and thinks he has a network.

<OS_Xtypes> :-)

    <pquick>   heee laughs with Joel

<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--yeah, that sounds about right.

<SpideyGeek> X - Kinda like Julie Staples, eh?

    <pquick>   whew, I admire ya, Spidey

<johnMark>  Romanist, does the RCC teach that one who is a beleiver may not end up being santified?

<OS_Xtypes> Naw, JS is cool.

<CalvinDude>  Peter Pike owns thecalvinist.com, debateatheism.org, and peterpike.com (and soon, another URL which isn't active yet)

<johnMark>  Julie who?

<johnMark>  oohh..Tims sister er something...yeah, her!

<SpideyGeek> X - Nah, she's a total lamer... is Tim Staples's niece or something

<OS_Xtypes> from thecalvinist.com's front page: Greetings! To dispel all notions to the contrary, a Calvinist believes God is a stuffed tiger and plays with a little boy...

<johnMark>  LOL

<StJohnCalv> Sanctification is synergistic <--------There, I have redeemed my spelling error.

<johnMark>  petercalvinist.com?

                 *   OS_Xtypes only owns three URLs.

<CalvinDude> OS_Xtypes--whoa!  When did you become Dave Hunt?

                 *   JoelYrick notes that Santification must also be synergistic too

<OS_Xtypes> ROFL

<SpideyGeek> lol

                 *   StJohnCalv slaps JoelYrick around a bit with a large trout

<johnMark>  StJohn, those who are justified will be sanctified which I think is different than that the RCC teaches

               ---   You are now known as DaveHunt

<DaveHunt> right now.

<DaveHunt> :)

<Romanist>  johnmark-well we make the mistake of combining justification and sanctification so its hard to answer that question. but a justified person would be bearing fruit obviously i think we both agree

               ---   You are now known as OS_X

      <OS_X>   much better.

<SpideyGeek> Kewl, CD!!

<JoelYrick>   <StJohnCalv> Santification is synergistic.

<Romanist>  heh

<StJohnCalv> [23:16] <JoelYrick> SJC, we agree on active reprobation, could we also agree on active sanctification- I'm aware that could be completely non-sequitar, but I don't know

<StJohnCalv> JoelYrick, two can play at this game.

<johnMark>  Romanist, we just had a discussion on this on carm on the cat board

<archjak1>   johnmark - Who?

<SpideyGeek> <wonky> Signs was about as scary as big giant not scary at all thing

<johnMark>  arch, several people :)

<JoelYrick>   SJC, it got the answer out of you!

<JoelYrick>   you gotta admit that!

<Romanist>  cool john-ill have to check it out-i usually just visit greg k's board for my theological debates heh

      <OS_X>   They've even got Charles Hodge's systematic

                 *   JoelYrick wonders how long he can wait on SJC's bluff, then deletes the SJC pop-up

    <pquick>   Romanist:  start reading a book (if you like recommendations) -- The God Who Justifies, by Dr. James White.  It's very informative, thorough, scholarly, but not overly "technical" -- it will tell you what the Protestant Reformed position is on Justification

              

<Romanist>  pquick-yes i wasnt looking for somebody to post 10 pgs from a systematic theology book on this-i was just wondering if you guys consider sanctification synergistic

<Romanist>  joel-nope this has been my nick for years

      <OS_X>   Romanist - in addition to that, I'd also recommend R.C. Sproul's books - Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, Gettign the GOspel Right and Willing to Believe. Between those four, you'll get a very good balanced view of the protestant viewpoint.

<Romanist>  thanks for the recs

      <OS_X>   ~nas Phil. 2:12-13

<Gutenberg> Phil. 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure. (NASB)

<johnMark>  arch and roman, here is the discussion http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=68500

<JoelYrick>   LOL OS!

    <pquick>   ~kjv Eph 4:30

<Gutenberg> Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (KJV)

      <OS_X>   Roman -  Phil. 2:12-13 is the Reformed Protestant viewpoint on sanctification (in a nutshell).

    <pquick>   I think this would pertain to Sanctification

<johnMark>  OS, are you saying the RP uses scripture to build doctrine?

<johnMark>  :)

      <OS_X>   We do actively work, but we realize that it is God Himself who works in us both to will (to give us the very ability to do His will) and to do (the strength to actually carry it out).

      <OS_X>   ~nas Eph. 2:10

<Gutenberg> Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)

<Romanist>  right os

      <OS_X>   The good works were 'prepared beforehand' for us. They are not nor cannot be meritorious.

<johnMark>  and we don't "work" as a duty to fulfill to God

      <OS_X>   Exactly.

<johnMark>  the whole of the law and prophets is fulfilled in the two greatest commands :)

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 22:37-40

<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. (NASB)

    <pquick>   we can't please God thru meritorious works -- Jesus work is sufficient

<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (NASB)

<johnMark>  like bringing your wife flowers because you love her and not because it's your duty :)

<johnMark>  that's a little dig from Piper

                 *   pquick johnMark doesn't bring meeee floowwers anyyyymore....

      <OS_X>   Justification and sanctification are SEPARATE in one aspect.  They describe two different dealings with God in relation to the elect.

<johnMark>  lol

<johnMark>  OS, yep

      <OS_X>   ~nas Rom. 3:28

<Gutenberg> Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (NASB)

<johnMark>  Romanist, do you know who Dave Armstrong is?

<Romanist>  yes os im aware of the distinction. the reason im asking this question is because ive been thinking a lot on sanctification and the elect bearing fruit-i mean how do you guys bear fruit and glorify god on a daily basis? ive been having a lot of insecurity about how the elect bear fruit and whether im deluding myself. i mean dont you guys ever think you should be doing more in your sanctification after you examine yourselves?  i mean i pray,study, do

      <OS_X>   But sanctification and justification are inseparably linked.

<Romanist>  yes os-the golden chain of redemption

      <OS_X>   After all, it was Calvin who made the wonderful statement that is oft quoted - "Though we are saved by faith alone, it is not a faith that IS alone."

      <OS_X>   God doesn't save anyone He doesn't sanctify.

<Romanist>  did you guys get that whole post

<johnMark>  Romanist, that sounds like you get to a point where you think you will try and pay God back for your indebtedness

      <OS_X>   Got it Romanist. that's actually a good sign.

<johnMark>  Romanist, here is a good debate for you to read through when you have time http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=149&topic_id=110&mesg_id=110&page=

<Romanist>  os yes ive heard that if youre even asking that question thats a good sign but i dont put much stock in that. dont you ever experience similar things. i see lives of past christians that are remarkable. so im often filled with doubt. the gate is narrow. and then i think of those at the last judgment who will say didnt i do these mighty works in your name and will be met with i never knew you. so i feel like im in a catch-22

      <OS_X>   Romanist - what is the basis of your salvation ?

<johnMark>  OS, good question

      <OS_X>   That's what your real dilema comes down to.

<johnMark>  find your joy, love, life in Christ Jesus

      <OS_X>   Before we got flooded, that's what I was typing.

      <OS_X>   My assurance comes from the fact that Christ is faithful to me and will not leave me nor forsake me.

      <OS_X>   My assurance of my salvation comes from the fact that He who began a good work in me WILL complete it.

      <OS_X>   ~nas phil. 1:6

<Gutenberg> Phil. 1:6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   my assurance comes from the fact that no one (and no one includes myself) can snatch me out of His hand.

      <OS_X>   ~nas John 10:27-29

<Gutenberg> John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (NASB)

<Gutenberg> John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> John 10:29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. (NASB)

  <Romanist>   christ of course. btw dont think of me in rc terms please when answering these questions if possible. right os_x, but peter also says to examine yourselves to look for signs of bearing fruit and that your election is sure. so when you examine yourself and (in my case at least) think you could be doing SO much more to glorify god, does not that give you pause?

      <OS_X>   It does.

<Romanist>  that is my dilemma

      <OS_X>   But then I look back (again) at the ground and root of my salvation.

<johnMark>  Romanist, here is a quote I made up which kinda sums it up for me, The question is not, "Am I good enough to be a Christian?" but, "Am I good enough not to be?"

      <OS_X>   I realize that 'sinless perfectionism' is impossible in this life.

      <OS_X>   We are what we are by God's grace alone.

              <--   cowpoet has quit ()

      <OS_X>   I look @ Paul struggling in Romans 7 - PAUL!!!

      <OS_X>   Still, I am commanded by God to press forward every day and die to myself.

      <OS_X>   So I do - as best as I can.

      <OS_X>   I already know I won't be perfect with it and being my own worst critic, I can ALWAYS be doing more.

<johnMark>  as Spurgeon said, "Do something, do something, do something"

<Romanist>  yes precisely. paul gives some comfort. but christ's warnings-the gate is narrow, if you are lukewarm i will spew you from my mouth, i never knew you etc weigh heavily on my conscience

      <OS_X>   But I believe God allows us at times to fall back into some sin to humble us and remember that no matter how 'good' we try to be after professing faith, we still fall as short of perfection as a man trying to jump to california from a pier in Hawaii.

      <OS_X>   Romanist - was David lukewarm ?

      <OS_X>   Remember David was a man after God's own heart. Yet David was an adulterer, murderer and stayed in unconfessed sin for over about a year.

              -->   tiredofNJ (~diaeresis@67.84.151.20) has joined #prosapologian

              <--   Romanist has quit (Ping timeout for Romanist[AC89EE0D.ipt.aol.com])

<RocketMan> I have always wondered about that

      <OS_X>   AOL got romanist. LOL

      <OS_X>   Is Romanist really a Romanist ?

<skyman`>   yes

              -->   Romanist (e@172.137.238.13) has joined #prosapologian

      <OS_X>   Welcome back.

<Romanist>  sorry got disconnected

      <OS_X>   It's AOL. We know. :)

<Romanist>  what was the last part of the convo before i got disconnected

      <OS_X>   Romanist - was David lukewarm ?

      <OS_X>   Remember David was a man after God's own heart. Yet David was an adulterer, murderer and stayed in unconfessed sin for over about a year.

<Romanist>  yes this is true

      <OS_X>   But David's considered a hero of the faith (Heb. 11:32).

<JoelYrick>   nas 1Ti 1:15

<JoelYrick>   ~nas 1Ti 1:15

              -->   MicahSlays (~klockheed@adsl-66-218-55-85.dslextreme.com) has joined #prosapologian

<Gutenberg> 1 Tim. 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost [of all]. (NASB)

<SpideyGeek> Micah!

               ---   CStar gives channel operator status to MicahSlays

      <OS_X>   I'm sure that David's lusting problems didn't begin with Bathsheba. They never do.

<MicahSlays> SpideyGeek!

<JoelYrick>   ~kjv 1Ti 1:15

<Gutenberg> 1 Tim. 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (KJV)

      <OS_X>   But David's *heart* eventually showed itself in his actions - he truly repented (Ps. 51) of what he had done.

      <OS_X>   The fruit of David's 'new heart' given to him by God showed that he was a believer. Not a perfect one, but a believer.

      <OS_X>   David's issue wasn't 'did I do enough to stay saved' - but rather 'because I am saved, this is what I need to do'.

      <OS_X>   Take a look at the Matt. 7:24 passage you quoted earlier.

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 7:24

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   oops.

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 7:23

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)

  <Romanist>   yes os_x. BECAUSE i am saved, this is what i need to do. so if you DONT do it....

<johnMark>  Romanist, he is not saying that I need to do this to be saved...he is already saved

      <OS_X>   Matter of fact, 7:21-23

<MicahSlays> would you folks say that the Church during the middle ages was by and large a good organization?

      <OS_X>   ~nas Romans 7:21-23

<Romanist>  os-yes but were they AWARE they were practicing lawlessness or had they deluded themselves?

<johnMark>  nah

<Gutenberg> Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Romans 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   Oops.

      <OS_X>   although this actually does pertain to our convo....

<MicahSlays> ~nas mat 7:21-23

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 7:21-23

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter]. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (NASB)

      <OS_X>   Thanks Micah. LOL

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)

<Romanist>  johnmark-yes i know-but if you dont do it-its a sign you werent saved

<Gutenberg> Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter]. (NASB)

<SpideyGeek> Micah - Um, no I wouldn't...

<CalvinDude>  http://www.se34.net/ is now updated with a quick flash movie I made, in which you can hear me play a quick guitar riff too :-)

      <OS_X>   IMO, Jesus wasn't giving a COMMAND here, but a statement of what the elect will do and what the non-elect will do.

<SpideyGeek> His exchange with Rond was getting nasty...

      <OS_X>   The non-elect will base their salvation on their works (i.e.- Lord, didn't we do this in your name ?)

              -->   Bradford (VanTil@ACC15F16.ipt.aol.com) has joined #prosapologian

<MicahSlays> nor would I, SpideyGeek, TGE would have us believe that the accesses of the Roman church in that time and thereafter were simply "exceptions" rather than the "rule"

      <OS_X>   Jesus's statement doesn' t say 'I used to know you, but you fell away or didn't do enough so I don't know you anymore'.

      <OS_X>   Jesus says I '*NEVER* knew you.

<SpideyGeek> Awesome, CD!

<SpideyGeek> Micah - Yeah, give the RCC back the power it had in the Middle Ages and see what happens...

      <OS_X>   The greek word GINOSKO (know) denotes intimate fellowship and experiential knowing vs a 'surface knowledge' knowing (usually termed by the greek word OIDA).

              -->   buzz (~djgere777@ip68-98-94-50.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #Prosapologian

<SpideyGeek> Hiya, Bradford!

<CalvinDude>  Spidey--yeah, I've gots to do lotsa work on it to make it REALLY cool, but for a quick "this site will eventually work" page, it's pretty sweet :-)

       <buzz>   Evenin'

              -->   Unafraid (Unafraid@64.6.5.132.outfitters.com) has joined #prosapologian

<SpideyGeek> CD - Indeed! Better than animated gifs of guys doing construction work. ;-)

      <OS_X>   Jesus says He *NEVER* 'GINOSKO'ed these folks who claimed to follow Him.

<CalvinDude>  SpideyGeek--*ROFL*  Those are SOOOOOO 1998!

      <OS_X>   further, He charged them with following LAWLESSNESS.

<SpideyGeek> LOL, yup ;-)

<StJohnCalv> [23:58] <StJohnCalv> Psalm 119

<StJohnCalv> [23:58] <StJohnCalv> A heart truly regenerated speaking about the true nature of the Law.

<SpideyGeek> StJ - :-D

<SpideyGeek> buzzzzzzzzzzzzz :-)

<SpideyGeek> Howdy, Unafraid :-)

<CalvinDude>  I'm so glad I got Macromedia Directory 7...

      <OS_X>   God sanctifies those whom He elects, calls and justifies. Bottom line.

<Unafraid>   hello

      <OS_X>   ~nas 1John 2:19

<Gutenberg> 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out], so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB)

<JoelYrick>   Howdy Unafraid, what are you doing on this fine day? =)

      <OS_X>   The non-elect will NOT continue in the Christian walk. They WILL fall away.

      <OS_X>   The elect WILL - *WITHOUT FAIL* continue.

<Unafraid>   obviously i am talking on the net joel lol

      <OS_X>   We are given the 'warning passages'  as a natural or regular means of informing us of what we need to do.

<JoelYrick>   its a pop-up that no one ever answers

<johnMark>  anyone read The Spider Letter by Jon Edwards?

      <OS_X>   But we are also given the above examples to show that the non-elect will not do these things.

      <OS_X>   Got all that Romanist ?

              <--   Stephanos has quit (Ping timeout for Stephanos[dsl081-229-186.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net])

<Unafraid>   well i answered

      <OS_X>   It's a bit all over the map, but when connected together, they all come back to Romans 8:29-30.

<JoelYrick>   ~nas Romans 8:29-30

<Gutenberg> Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (NASB)

<Romanist>  os right

<Gutenberg> Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   A 'human' illustration is this - God tells you YOU WILL LIVE TO 80 YEARS OF AGE. SO HAVE I DECREED AND IT WILL BE DONE. God also tells you YOU MUST EAT TO KEEP LIVING. WEAKNESS WILL COME IF/WHEN YOU DO NOT EAT.

              -->   anon_329 (~samnj@67.85.171.250) has joined #prosapologian

               ---   anon_329 is now known as samnj

      <OS_X>   God ordains the ends and the means for all of these things to happen.

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 25:26-30

<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no [seed]. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my [money] back with interest. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:29 "For to everyone who has, [more] shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   So examine yourself.

              <--   CalvinDude has quit ()

      <OS_X>   Are you out investing the talents that He has left you with ?

<Romanist>  not to nearly the fullest possible extent i could be. that is the problem

      <OS_X>   and again, it comes back to this - what is the ground/basis of your being declared just before God ?

              <--   anon_328 has quit (Ping timeout for anon_328[67.85.165.116])

      <OS_X>   The unprofitable servant won't be worried about this stuff.

      <OS_X>   Take a look at his attitude in v. 26 and 27.

<johnMark>  I picked up a book called , "A Jonathan Edwards Reader" today

<JoelYrick>   Adios todos =)

               ---   JoelYrick is now known as JoelGone

      <OS_X>   I still believe it comes back to this - what is the ground/basis of your being declared just before God ?

                 *   OS_X slaps JoelYrick out of the room

      <OS_X>   :)

              -->   anon_328 (~samnj@67.85.165.116) has joined #prosapologian

<RocketMan> the finished work of Christ

      <OS_X>   the finished work of Christ ALONE ?

      <OS_X>   or are you relying on your works to 'keep you saved' ?

      <OS_X>   This is the key issue.

               ---   anon_328 is now known as sam

<RocketMan> the first

<RocketMan> I'm not Catholic

<Romanist>  os shouldnt true disciples of christ suffer and sacrifice? i see evangelists being imprisoned overseas or selling all their stuff to set up clinics or schools or whatnot. that is sacrifice. giving a meal to a homeless guy every once in a while isnt. yes struggling with sin can be viewed as suffering i suppose

              <--   samnj has quit (Ping timeout for samnj[67.85.171.250])

      <OS_X>   That understandable, but *the issue* is still this - what is the ground/basis of your being declared just before God ?

<Romanist>  os-relying on christ but also realizing a good tree will bear fruit and to examine myself daily

      <OS_X>   So  are you relying on your works to 'keep you saved' ?

<Romanist>  i am relying on them to see if my election is sure

      <OS_X>   what does that mean ?

<MicahSlays> I was right about recons...

       <buzz>   Hi Micah

<MicahSlays> grrr

<MicahSlays> hello buzz

              -->   Hobster (hcnewton@sdn-ap-026castocP0434.dialsprint.net) has joined #prosapologian

               ---   Gutenberg removes ban on *!*@*interbusiness.it

<Romanist>  ~nas 2Cor 13:5

<Gutenberg> 2 Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test? (NASB)

<Romanist>  ~nas 2Pet 1:10

<Gutenberg> 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; (NASB)

<mon-lurx>   That is directed to the church body (2 Cor 13:5)

<tiredofNJ>   Eh.  He makes good points, Micah, like they always do, but the problem is what's actually being said ... you can point out fault after fault after fault of the modern church, and even quote Athanasius, but neither even begins to establish that the pre-Reformation RC church was an ideal.

      <OS_X>   How do you examine yourself ? What's the examination process ?

      <OS_X>   ~nas 1john 5:10-13

<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (NASB)

                 *   mon-lurx is sick and tired of hearing that passage (by Protestants and Catholics alike) being misused.

<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (NASB)

<MicahSlays> tired - surely, but that's not the point

<tiredofNJ>   Heya, Hobster.

<mon-lurx>   :)

<MicahSlays> tired - to claim that the excesses of the 12-15 century 'church

              -->   wolfie (~swwolf@adsl-66-218-55-85.dslextreme.com) has joined #prosapologian

<MicahSlays> were the 'exception' is flabbergasting

      <OS_X>   Actually, the 2 Peter 1:10 passage is a good backup to the 'human' illustration I posted earlier.

      <OS_X>   A 'human' illustration is this - God tells you YOU WILL LIVE TO 80 YEARS OF AGE. SO HAVE I DECREED AND IT WILL BE DONE. God also tells you YOU MUST EAT TO KEEP LIVING. WEAKNESS WILL COME IF/WHEN YOU DO NOT EAT.

<RocketMan> mon, if you are tired, go to bed!

  <Hobster>   hiya tired

<mon-lurx>   lol Rocket

      <OS_X>   God ordains the ends and the means for all of these things to happen.

<mon-lurx>   Prolly need to

<mon-lurx>   Hey, wolfie!

<Romanist>  os-i examine myself to see if my actions are inline with scripture's commands and warnings

<tiredofNJ>   Micah: *shrug* For reasons I don't get they're trying to attack the Reformation.  I agree with you.  Rome is no Christianity at all.

<Romanist>  os i can understand that

<MicahSlays> tired - *shrug back* let

<MicahSlays> tired - *shrug back* let's conquer the world for christ, grab an AK and I'll meet you at the pool-hall

      <OS_X>   Well and fine.  So when you see yourself falling short of it, you doubt your salvation.  The reason for this is because you are still relying on your works as the ground of your salvation.

<RocketMan> mon, if you spell like that, you do need to go to bed!

<mon-lurx>   heh

<mon-lurx>   <slurred speech>

<mon-lurx>   lol

<RocketMan> :)

      <OS_X>   Or at least *part* of the foundation of your salvation.

                 *   MicahSlays checks mon's drink

                 *   OS_X could really use a Smirnoff Ice right now.

<Romanist>  i am relying on my works as evidence of my salvation

<mon-lurx>   Who came up with "prolly" anyway?

<tiredofNJ>   Maybe the early church did believe in that ... personally I think it was more a concern about preaching the gospel for all nations, if their motivations were correct, and wealth and influence, as they all too often were corrupted ...

<MicahSlays> mon - me

<mon-lurx>   LOL

<mon-lurx>   :)

      <OS_X>   Okay Romanist, how many good works is enough to 'keep' you saved ?

                 *   mon-lurx looks at Micah, the trend setter

<tiredofNJ>   But either way, they're wrong.  The NT church is not Israel with a properly functioning engine, it's a bunch of screwups, like Israel, trusting in God for mercy, like Israel, and looking forward to *His* establishment of His kingdom, like Israel.

<Theophorus> ~nas Hos 6:7

                 *   MicahSlays does the channel dance

<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me. (NASB)

<MicahSlays> tired - PRAISE GOD! YOU'RE A SCREWUP!

<tiredofNJ>   But we don't pave the way.  We're brought to life, follow our Lord, look for His coming, and point others to Him.  And that's it, really.

              -->   DrOakafk (~ortho@cpe-24-221-125-165.az.sprintbbd.net) has joined #ProsApologian

               ---   CStar gives channel operator status to DrOakafk

      <OS_X>   By the way Romanist - consider the statement just made by Tired - But either way, they're wrong.  The NT church is not Israel with a properly functioning engine, it's a bunch of screwups, like Israel, trusting in God for mercy, like Israel, and looking forward to *His* establishment of His kingdom, like Israel.

<Romanist>  obviously there is no number. but the elect should grow in holiness, sacrifice, suffer, and glorify god

<SpideyGeek> Doc!

                 *   MicahSlays says in his DJ voice: "Lady's and Gentlemen... DRO!

      <OS_X>   But Romanist - if there is no number, then how can you have the assurance mentioned in 1 John 5 :10-13 ?

<SpideyGeek> w00t!

<DrOakafk>  Howdy.

               ---   DrOakafk is now known as DrOakley

<DrOakley>   Seems with the proper video drivers in place your system will actually go into stand-by.  :-)

<SpideyGeek> lol

<DrOakley>   mIRC doesn't like that, however.  :-)

      <OS_X>   you see, what you have done (hi doc) is used your works as a guage for whether or not you are saved, but out of the other side of your keyboard, you've said that you don't believe there's any definitive number of works which can truly demonstrate that you are a believer.

<DrOakley>   I was just listening to the debate between Matatics and Svendsen, and was getting angry while lifting (which is sorta good in a way).

       <buzz>   Evenin Doc

<DrOakley>   Evening Brother Buzz.

      <OS_X>   At the risk of committing a logical fallacy, I belive it *MUST* of necessity be one or the other.

      <OS_X>   Either your works in concert with your faith is the ground of your justification or NO amount of works can absolutely be a determining factor in whether or not you are one of the elect.

              <--   Unafraid has quit ()

      <OS_X>   And if the first be true, then Paul is a liar in the book of Galatians and @ Romans 3:27- all of chapter 4.

<StJohnCalv> Theophorus, would you say that Hosea is speaking of the Covenant of Works?

      <OS_X>   And if the second be true, then the only legit means of *determinatively knowing* [grin] that you are one of the elect is that your assurance of salvation rest not on YOUR fruit, but on Christ's finished work on the Cross ALONE.

               ---   wonky is now known as wonkzzZZ

      <OS_X>   Nite Wonkers.

<SpideyGeek> Niters, wonkified one :-)

<Theophorus> Yes.

<MicahSlays> drO: http://reachingforchrist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5305#5305

<Theophorus> Law is defined by "Do this and live" or in simpler terms "Do this and get that."

               ---   Theophorus :Nickname is already in use.

                 *   DrOakley shakes Theo's hand and accidentally crushes it, having just finished another healthy round of arm tri-sets...."So sorry."

    <kletois>   Theo!

<Theophorus> Therefore it was a Covenant of Law. 

<Theophorus> LOL

>Theophorus< Hey Theo - u think I framed that argument up good enough ?

<Theophorus> Yeah.

                 *   Theophorus informs DrO that he was mistakenly shaking the blade of his new folder.

<DrOakley>   Heh.

<Romanist>  os so how do you examine yourself

<RocketMan> mirros

    <kletois>   my mom wanted to know who the hunk was in the picture (I was at www.straitgate.com/aom)

<RocketMan> mirrors

<Theophorus> lol

              -->   Biblicist (Gobbler@ip68-104-251-171.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian

               ---   CStar gives channel operator status to Biblicist

<Theophorus> There goes the neighborhood.

<SpideyGeek> Gobb!!

       <buzz>   Hiya Gobb

   <Biblicist>   SPidey!, buzz!

   <Biblicist>   Theo, you took the neighborhood a while ago.

<SpideyGeek> lol

<DrOakley>   Thanks for that link, Micah.  I thought TGE had stopped posting.

<DrOakley>   :-/

   <Biblicist>   link?

               ---   RustyOut is now known as Rusty

               ---   Received a CTCP Sound freedom.wav from Rusty

<StJohnCalv> ~kjv hos 6:7

<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. (KJV)

      <OS_X>   Let's see.

<SpideyGeek> Doc - I administered a warning to him and jmgainor... jm shot himself in the foot with a subsequent post, and I informed them that the next time either of them acted up, it was the boot.

<DrOakley>   It would be relatively easy to write that script that kicks Rusty as soon as the text "is now known as Rusty" appears on the screen.

<mon-lurx>   LOL

<Romanist>  and os you dont think 2cor 13:5 applies to individual believers?

      <OS_X>   I look at my heart like scripture commands me to. Is there an awareness of my sin, true remosre for it and a desire to turn from whatever I have screwed up in ?

      <Rusty>   lol

<Romanist>  hmm ok

<SpideyGeek> Was one of those "can't kick one and not the other" Catch-22's. A couple of people are trying to press him for clarification though... hopefully something good comes of it.

      <Rusty>   hi guys, how is everyone?

<SpideyGeek> Rusty!

<Romanist>  but os that only seems half the examination

      <OS_X>   2 Cor. 13:5, IMO, applies to the church body in general. Paul was speaking to wheat and tares both in the visible church. He probably realized 'HEY some of these folk AIN'T saved!' So they needed to examine themselves.

<DrOakley>   It amazes....and saddens....me to see him referring to the expansion of Rome as the triumph of Christ's kingdom.

      <OS_X>   Not done with the examination yet. :)

<Romanist>  cool heh

<SpideyGeek> Ditto :-(

<Romanist>  i agree with your first part anyhow heh

              -->   david (david@bb220-255-27-117.singnet.com.sg) has joined #prosapologian

<Theophorus> [21:28] <Biblicist> Theo, you took the neighborhood a while ago.  <---I'm struggling to not let that go to my head.

              -->   THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #prosapologian

      <david>   hi guys

      <david>   so, I missed DL....

      <david>   by 4 hours

      <david>   :-(

<SpideyGeek> david!

<SpideyGeek> :-(

      <david>   hey SG

      <david>   I was going to call in

      <david>   if you guys put it at a more sensible time then you'll get a phone call from me...

      <david>   IDD is way cheap out here

      <THX`>   out where?

<DrOakley>   Had a lot of calls today.

      <Rusty>   well, i'm out again =). hope everyone's night goes well. God bless

<DrOakley>   I was surprised.

<DrOakley>   Rusty!

      <OS_X>   You know, I never really looked in detail at the 'examination' process in my life. I simply broke it into three areas  - what do I believe about God, what do I believe about me and my sin and what will I do in response to it all.

<DrOakley>   You come in, play that silly wav, and leave???

      <david>   Singapore

                 *   DrOakley taps his foot.

      <Rusty>   DrO!

      <THX`>   singapore huh?

      <Rusty>   ...alright, I'll stay for a minute

      <THX`>   nice.

      <david>   yeah

      <Rusty>   =)

      <david>   not bad

<DrOakley>   lol

      <david>   damn hot

      <OS_X>   The answers are found in scripture, Romanist.

      <david>   every day

              <--   DrOakley has kicked Rusty from #ProsApologian (Git!)

              -->   Rusty (Rusty@ip68-104-186-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #ProsApologian

      <THX`>   expat or singaporean?

<SpideyGeek> lol

      <david>   expat, local wife

      <THX`>   ok.

      <OS_X>   What I beleive about God - Trinity, Deity of Christ, General Attributes, etc....

      <THX`>   originally from where?

      <david>   UK

      <david>   before that I was a spirit child of Elohim.... oh no, wrong room

      <david>   :-)

              -->   WebGuest (~WebUser@ip68-109-145-183.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian

      <THX`>   im a donut. am i in the wrong room too?

      <david>   \join mormoncoffeebreak

      <OS_X>   What I believe about myself - sinner in need of salvation, my good works can't merit salvation or serve as any ground for salvation, I need a Savior, I must repent of my sin, certain actions in my daily life are not pleasing to God and I must repent/turn from them....

      <david>   so, I have a question but I'll save it for a phone-in

      <THX`>   is just that this room has the most ppl on this server.

      <Rusty>   So, me and two buddies were out to dinner tonight, and we were laughin' and jokin around. When we got our food, we stopped, and one of us prayed. I'm sure it was noticably quieter in our area. That is why I am convinced that somewhere there is Proverb that goes something like...

      <david>   when's the next show?

      <THX`>   so i came to see what it was all about.

<DrOakley>   Hey, our s disappeared!

      <david>   well, THX its' a big room

               ---   DrOakley sets mode +s #ProsApologian

      <Rusty>   "Christians are only quiet when they pray."  =)

      <THX`>   so what IS this room all about?

                 *   MDH-lurks notes that "ProsApologian" is the Greek phrase found at 1 Peter 3:15, pros apologian, translated "toward a defense." It is the root phrase of "apologetics," giving a reasoned defense of the Christian faith. Channel rules and guidelines can be found at http://www.aomin.org/proschat.html

<DrOakley>   No wonder we have been getting.....lots of visitors.  :-)

<SpideyGeek> lol

      <david>   are you a Christian THX?

<WebGuest>  Hey Dr.1

                 *   DrOakley bonks CStar.

      <OS_X>   What I plan to do about it - well, first off I need to confess (1 John 1:9) and then turn from my sins, make no provision for them any  longer, turn to God and turn away from them, deny myself and die to myself....

      <OS_X>   That's a 'rough' version of my interpretation of 'examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith'.

      <THX`>   do i have to be?

                 *   Rusty still isn't over the many incidents where Gutey unexpectantly 'takes off' from his post without informing the rest of us

<DrOakley>   THX:  If you want eternal life.  :-)

      <david>   no.

      <david>   but DrO has brought up one of the major advantages!

      <THX`>   nah, im happy with just part of life. doesnt have to be eternal.

<tiredofNJ>   Occasionally Gutey needs to run to get milk for his cookiez.

      <OS_X>   Unbelievers will not have an awareness of their sin or need for a Savior, and even if they have this at an intellectual level, they will NOT place their faith in Christ alone for their salvation.

      <THX`>   im pretty easy about these things.

<DrOakley>   Must be young.

<Theophorus> lol

      <david>   wow, so no problems with dying then? That'll just be a breeze for you?

      <THX`>   *shrug*

      <david>   really, wow - someone who's confident about death

      <OS_X>   Now with all of that said, Romanist, we go back to the fundament question I posed to you earlier....

      <THX`>   ill take it as it comes i guess.

      <david>   really? Wow, thats quite blase

      <OS_X>   Well and fine.  So when you see yourself falling short of it, you doubt your salvation.  The reason for this is because you are still relying on your works as the ground of your salvation.

<SpideyGeek> Why is it that Gutey isn't socializing when there's a chance to insert some humor into the convo?

<SpideyGeek> *grumbles*

      <david>   it's a big deal, you sure you want to risk it on "I'll take it as it comes"?

      <OS_X>   At the risk of committing a logical fallacy, I belive it *MUST* of necessity be one or the other.

<SpideyGeek> *goes back to writing*

<DrOakley>   ~nas Psa 90:12

      <OS_X>   Either your works in concert with your faith is the ground of your justification or NO amount of works can absolutely be a determining factor in whether or not you are one of the elect.

<Gutenberg> Psalm 90:12 So teach us to number our days, That we may present to You a heart of wisdom. (NASB)

      <Rusty>   alright, now I'm off. THX', welcome to our channel =)

               ---   Rusty is now known as RustyO

      <OS_X>   And if the second be true, then the only legit means of *determinatively knowing* [grin] that you are one of the elect is that your assurance of salvation rest not on YOUR fruit, but on Christ's finished work on the Cross ALONE.

                 *   StJohnCalv waves to johnMark

      <david>   ~psa 103:15-17

<johnMark>  o/

      <OS_X>   And if the first be true, then Paul is a liar in the book of Galatians and @ Romans 3:27- all of chapter 4.

      <david>   ~nas psa 103:15-17

      <david>   that's better

<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:15 As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:16 When the wind has passed over it, it is no more, And its place acknowledges it no longer. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Psalm 103:17 But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children, (NASB)

      <OS_X>   So according to the testimony of the scriptures, which is true ?

<Theophorus> I was never scared of dying until I became a Christian.

      <david>   THX, have you ever considered that you're really just like chopped grass?

<Romanist>  os dont you think sloth is a sin?

               ---   RustyO is now known as Rustymoves

      <OS_X>   (and while you think on that for a second or three, I'll be off grabbing some ice tea...)

               ---   You are now known as OS_Xdrinks

<Rustymoves>  ...helpin a friend pack. thanks for the chat

      <david>   you have a "good" short life but it's just blown away and doesn't count for anything.

                 *   Theophorus dumps some booze in that tea.

               ---   WebGuest is now known as CollarMan

<DrOakley>   lol

<CollarMan> Rookie

<tiredofNJ>   THX: Okay.  Christians believe that after death, all meet God, and if you're not in Christ you're cast into hell for eternity.  Why don't you believe that's the case?

                 *   OS_Xdrinks holds click lighter in front of face with a mouth full of booze and takes a deep breath.

      <david>   oooh, hardline from Tired

      <THX`>   do i have to believe that is the case?

      <david>   well, believing or not believing it doesn't make it any less true

      <david>   I believe you're a welsh wombat

<tiredofNJ>   I would say so, but what I asked honestly isn't a trick question, I'm just curious why you believe the way you do.

                 *   david is wary of welsh wombats, what with their wily ways....

      <THX`>   not really a belief. more a topic that hasnt actually been thought about, rather than a conclusion already made.

  <shuLurx>   Doc....your daughter just got home, btw....:)

      <david>   THX, what do you know about Jesus?

<tiredofNJ>   Fair enough.

<skyman`>   <skyman`> dunno

<skyman`>   <CollarMan> Don't know anyone by 'dunno'..

<skyman`>   <CollarMan> Sorry

<johnMark>  Romanist, is every thought you have that does not glorify God a sin?

<skyman`>   Collarman, you playing some kind of game?

<DrOakley>   sky:  Collar is an old friend.

<skyman`>   ok

      <THX`>   jesus? who he?

<CollarMan> No, just been awhile since I've been on..

      <david>   lol

<DrOakley>   Once a VP of A&O in fact.  :-)

<CollarMan> Trivia..

<tiredofNJ>   I'll be honest, though, most people don't have the kind of time to really work through such a topic when it finally becomes important to work through.

<SpideyGeek> Howdy, CollarMan :-)

<MDH-lurks> Things always get interesting in Channel right about the time I'm about to fall asleep.........

<MDH-lurks> :-)

<CollarMan> Buenos Diaz!

<SpideyGeek> MDH - So, stay up ;-)

<CollarMan> Ooops!

<MDH-lurks> Nite all

<mon-lurx>   hehehe

<mon-lurx>   I thought so

<Romanist>  johnmark perhaps.

<johnMark>  nite

<MDH-lurks> LOL

<SpideyGeek> Niters, MDH!

      <THX`>   when does something like that become important?

      <david>   THX, seriously though - Jesus makes enormous claims about who He is and the consequences of ignoring Him

      <david>   have you explored that?

<tiredofNJ>   When you face the possibility of dying.

<DrOakley>   sky:  Thanks for the Amazon thing.  I may pick that up.

              <--   MDH-lurks has quit ("The Only Thing Man Brings to His Salvation is the Sin that Makes it Necessary" Charles Spurgeon)

      <THX`>   nope. never explored that.

<skyman`>   DrO, I forgot, what did I do?

      <david>   would you like to?

<Romanist>  what do you think johnmark-does anything that does not glorify god a sin?

<DrOakley>   The work on EO.

      <THX`>   not really.

<skyman`>   ahhh

      <david>   why not?

<skyman`>   you bet

      <THX`>   dont have the time.

      <david>   don't have the time to sort your life out?

      <david>   what else are you doing?

<tiredofNJ>   Which can be at any time, really.  Death has a way of sneaking up on people.

      <THX`>   christians spend a lot of time examining these things.

               ---   You are now known as OS_X

      <OS_X>   Back.

      <THX`>   i dont think i can spare this kinda time.

      <david>   why not?

      <david>   what if it's the most important thing you ever look at?

<Romanist>  os dont you think sloth is a sin?

<DrOakley>   What are you doing that is more important than eternity, THX?

      <THX`>   what if it isnt?

      <david>   If someone told you you were ill would you say "don't have the time to explore the medicine, but thanks.."?

<johnMark>  Romanist, thinking of Christ teaching of doing something in your thought is the same as actually doing it..I would say yes

  <shuLurx>   Heya Benny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      <THX`>   if i was ill, id def explore the medicine.

      <david>   well, you're ill

<tiredofNJ>   Is the other stuff really worth it?  Say that you're suddenly afflicted with one of any number of diseases and needed to be hospitalized, would the consideration that you've given towards, say, home theatre setups, really affect you much?

<CollarMan> Hey Lurx!

  <shuLurx>   I gotta get my YELL count back up. I'm sure that I am falling behind in that category!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

      <david>   Jesus tells us that we're all ill and need medicine, badly

      <OS_X>   Romanist, you're missing the point.

<DrOakley>   still second the last I looked, shuey.  :-)

      <OS_X>   You have have already said that no amount of good works we do can keep us saved.

      <david>   THX, when was the last day that you never did anything wrong?

<CollarMan> Ohhhhh!   It's shu...I get it <LOL>

  <shuLurx> Ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      <THX`>   really, he says that?

      <david>   yup

      <THX`>   that we are all ill?

      <david>   he does

  <shuLurx>   Good,  B-man, real good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      <OS_X>   It's not a matter of what I believe to be a sin - rather it is a matter of what the ground of my salvation is.

<CollarMan> Can't let someone else here see you are on..

      <david>   Spiritually terminally ill

<RocketMan> an evil a perverse generation seeks after a ...stat!

<Theophorus> LOL

<Romanist>  johnmark-certainly we can have sinful thoughts

<tiredofNJ>   Well, we're actually worse than ill, we're dead, but ...

  <shuLurx>   yes Collar....

      <OS_X>   is it Christ alone or Christ plus my 'splendid vic...er...good works as evidence that I'm His ?

      <david>   ~nas eph 2:1

<Gutenberg> Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (NASB)

      <THX`>   so we all have no hope then. lol

  <shuLurx>   Whatever it takes, RM

  <shuLurx>   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                 *   Theophorus straps Rocket to the tip of one of his personal "frankensteins" and sends him into orbit.

<tiredofNJ>   THX: Right, actually! :)

<RocketMan> that's commitment

      <david>   no hope whatsover

      <david>   soever

      <OS_X>   whatsover ?

      <OS_X>   the opposite of under.

      <THX`>   in which case, we should all just give up then surely?

                 *   RocketMan notes Theo is not capable of such a feat...only Balloon Boy can do that

<CollarMan> Our closet is too small for more shoes...

<tiredofNJ>   That's why the publican in Luke 18 fell on his face before God and cried for undeserved mercy.

      <david>   what if someone could save you from that terrible situation?

<tiredofNJ>   No.  One should follow the publican's example, and if one doesn't have such feelings, one should start asking for a new heart.

                 *   Theophorus chuckles as Rocket has somehow preprogrammed his beast to write "You Suck" in the sky in case of hostile takeover

<Romanist>  os okay then how are we to determine if we are deluding ourselves if we cannot examine our actions as a sign of our election

<RocketMan> Collarman, get a bigger closet!

<CollarMan> No money...

<CollarMan> Humble means..

<RocketMan> shu does not accept that as an excuse

  <shuLurx>   Bigger closet or small feet....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<CollarMan> Barefoot in our monastary...

  <shuLurx>   lol

<DrOakley>   THX:  Ever taken the time to read any of the words of the one man in history who rose from the dead?

<RocketMan> suffer'in for Jesus?

<johnMark>  DrO, good point

<RocketMan> so you are saying there is a big shoe market there???

<CollarMan> THX: How do you know Jesus of Nazareth even existed?

      <THX`>   where are these words?

      <david>   in the Bible

      <david>   the big book with the little books inside it

<DrOakley>   Well, I would highly recommend to you the Gospel of John.

      <david>   yeah, a good one is John

      <OS_X>   Romanist - I know in *REFORMED* Churches (those that really are reformed in practice, not just in name) the combination of the gospel message being proclaimed again every Sunday, the sacraments being explained and partaken of every Sunday, the charge to examine yourselves for unconfessed sin and unrepentant lives usually serve to be too much for most folk to sit under for an extended period of time and not really take a look at themselves

      <OS_X>   .

<DrOakley>   You could probably read it in a single sitting.

      <THX`>   they werent his words were they? thought bible words were words of ppl that wrote about him?

      <david>   Matthew Mark and Luke also have a pretty good review on Amazon :-)

<CollarMan> THX: How do you determine what is right and wrong?

      <david>   they're his words, for example here's what Luke says when writing about it,

      <david>   ~nas luke 1:1-4

<DrOakley>   THX:  That is correct.  John is written by Jesus' closest disciple. 

<Gutenberg> Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Luke 1:2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, (NASB)

      <THX`>   those words are lukes then, not his own.

<Gutenberg> Luke 1:3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write [it] out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Luke 1:4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   With that kind of 'pressure', you are forced to look at your life and check it against the picture of scripture. Not just one day's actions, but your whole 'life pattern'.

      <david>   they're written from eyewitnesses

   <Biblicist>   CollarMan, how goes it?

      <OS_X>   And that also includes the ground of your salvation - whehter you are trusting in Christ alone for your salvation or Christ + your good works.

<CollarMan> It's not gone yet...

<CollarMan> :^)

  <shuLurx>   Gotta go, gotta work tomorrow.....

  <shuLurx>   gn

      <THX`>   so are they true accounts?

      <david>   so we may know the exact truth.....

               ---   shuLurx is now known as shuZZZ

      <david>   yup

<CollarMan> Oh, and we don't?

<DrOakley>   Nighty Shuey.

      <THX`>   are you sure?

<DrOakley>   Have fun tomorrow.

      <david>   yup

   <Biblicist>   Heh...

<SpideyGeek> Niters, shuey!

   <shuZZZ>   ok....

<RocketMan> yeah, me too...big test tomorrow

<CollarMan> ShuzZZZ or Snoooz?

      <david>   night guys

   <Biblicist>   Nite shuey

<DrOakley>   THX:  Some of us have spent our lives studying them.  :-)

<Romanist>  os- it is of course right to rely on christ alone, but we also must remember good trees bear fruit, disciples should grow in holiness, suffer, sacrifice, and glorify god as much as possible. there are vast chasms between where i stand/do and where i could be/could do in each of those areas. and many are called, few are chosen simply compounds the doubt. yes os i can understand that.

      <THX`>   and what have you found so far?

              <--   RocketMan has quit (...on to other things....)

   <shuZZZ>   ShuZZZ...aka shoes....:)

      <david>   that it's true! That Christ is alive

<DrOakley>   Tremendous consistency and eternal life.

      <david>   and that He's God

   <shuZZZ>   but also shu sleeping..:)

<SpideyGeek> Amen, on all accounts :-)

      <THX`>   thought he was the son of god?

      <david>   He's God, THX, that requires a certain realignment of priorities

<CollarMan> ShuSnorZ

      <david>   "Son of" is an idiom.

      <OS_X>   ~nas John 5:18-23

   <shuZZZ>   Hey, no I don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<Gutenberg>   OS_X: Please limit your request to 5 verses.

   <shuZZZ>   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              <--   shuZZZ has quit ()

<CollarMan> Cuttin' wood...

   <Biblicist>   CollarMan, are those the new brand of shoes a Neiman Marcus?

      <OS_X>   ~nas john 5:18-22

      <david>   In Jewish thought the Son has all the priorities and wants and desires and responsibilities of the Father

<Gutenberg> John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless [it is] something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> John 5:20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and [the Father] will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. (NASB)

              -->   Keith (Keith@ip68-109-129-91.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #prosapologian

<Gutenberg> John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, (NASB)

      <OS_X>   THX - see above on what 'Son of God' means.

      <david>   soif the Father's a baker the son is a baker

<johnMark>  ~nas Is. 63:14

<Gutenberg> johnMark: Sorry, I don't understand your request.

  -DrOakley-   You know, a thought just hit me....back when I first started ircing we had a rule about having no more than three ops opped at any one time just to keep from lookiing too "top heavy." Might be a good idea. Any thoughts?  ()<Ops Only>()

<johnMark>  ~nas Isa. 63:14

<Gutenberg> Isaiah 63:14 As the cattle which go down into the valley, The Spirit of the LORD gave them rest. So You led Your people, To make for Yourself a glorious name. (NASB)

      <david>   so much so that a common Jewish insult is to call you "Son of a Pig" ie "you're so much like a pig you must be a pig"

               ---   Biblicist removes channel operator status from Biblicist

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 19:21-27

<Gutenberg> Romanist: Please limit your request to 5 verses.

      <david>   sowhen Jesus is called the "Son" he's saying that He's God

               ---   -op :Unknown command

<CollarMan> Like Dr.O said, a serious survey thru John and one's view of Christ changes dramatically..

               ---   Biblicist is now known as Gobbler

<johnMark>  Gutenberg is working overtime

      <david>   yea, John lays it out very clearly

               ---   OS_X removes channel operator status from OS_X

<CollarMan> Oh, that Biblicist!

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 19:21-24

  <Gobbler>   lol

<DrOakley>   I asked for comments, not a mass de-opping!!!  :-)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go [and] sell your possessions and give to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   ROFL

<CollarMan> How's the better half?

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (NASB)

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 19:25-27

      <THX`>   john must be some dude then.

               ---   DrOakley removes channel operator status from DrOakley

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:26 And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (NASB)

               ---   DrOakley is now known as DrOakXP

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)

  <Gobbler>   We know what ou meant!

  <Gobbler>   you

<CollarMan> He was someone dear to our Lord..

      <OS_X>   Yeah, what Gobbler said!

      <OS_X>   lol

<Romanist>  os- "we have left everything and followed You"

<Romanist>  have you done this, have i?

<Romanist>  i certainly havent

      <david>   yeah, he was some dude, and Jesus more than Him, by a long shot

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 19:28-30

<CollarMan> THX: How about your thoughts on John after a review?

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:30 "But many [who are] first will be last; and [the] last, first. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   Ahhh.

<CollarMan> THX: What was it about Jesus of Nazareth that changed 12 men radically?

      <david>   yeah, THX. Go and read Johnand let usknow what you think

      <david>   I'd be interested

      <OS_X>   Romanist, take a look back at the start of that passage.

      <david>   to see what impression it has on you

<CollarMan> THX: Made these men leave what they had...

<CollarMan> THX:  Made them tell others about this carpenter from Galilee...

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 19:16-20

<CollarMan> THX:  To the point of death, torture and ridicule...

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is [only] One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (NASB)

      <THX`>   do i have to read it? its pretty late and im tired. lol

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:18 [Then] he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" (NASB)

      <david>   take your time

      <david>   get backto us

      <OS_X>   Do you really believe the rich young ruler had kept ALL of these commandments from his youth ?

<CollarMan> THX:  Take it a bit at a time...

<DrOakXP>   THX:  I will pray that you will not forget our suggestion to read the work.

<CollarMan> THX:  It took the disciples 3 years to realize the magnitude of His Person..

      <THX`>   so john you say huh?

<Romanist>  no one could os

      <THX`>   what about the other three nt gospels then?

      <david>   they're also good!!

<CollarMan> THX:  Even then, the Creator provided His own Spirit to open their hearts, minds & souls..

<DrOakXP>   We were suggesting an easy starting place.  :-)

      <OS_X>   So Romanist, what makes you think that you can NOW ?

      <david>   but John isslightly different in approach

      <david>   choose one and read it, maybe John

      <THX`>   in the beginning was the word and all that... also good?

<Romanist>  i never said i can become sinless in this life os

<CollarMan> THX:  I can assure you, after reading John, you'll crave to sit at the foot of Christ as Matthew, Mark & Luke provide insight..

      <david>   that's John, THX

      <david>   ~nas john 1:1

<Gutenberg> John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NASB)

<Romanist>  but i surely can do more for my neighbor and more to glorify god than i am presently

<CollarMan> THX:  There's good reason John writes the way he does...

      <THX`>   oh. then i learnt that all by rote when i was at school.

      <david>   and then he spends the rest of the gospel explaining who the Word is

<Romanist>  in fact, i should "leave everything"

<CollarMan> THX:  You wil begin to understand as John reveals the real character of Jesus...

      <OS_X>   did Peter really leave everything ?

<Romanist>  could the rich man leave his riches?

      <david>   go for it THX

      <david>   then get back to us and tell us what you think!!!

      <OS_X>   Keep in mind, the same emphaticness that Peter said 'Lord, we've left everything for You' was the same emphaticness that he said 'Lord, I'll never betray you!'

<CollarMan>  OS_X:  Yes, maybe at first for the wrong reasons...but after Christ restored him, Peter understood and proved he did at Pentacost...

                 *   david is going to return to his evangelicalism book

      <OS_X>   Sure. He left material things.

      <david>   good to chat to you, THX

<CollarMan>  OS_X:  When we use our own strength and might instead of trusting by faith in our Lord, we would trip just as much...

      <david>   yougot a real name?

      <OS_X>   If you really want to be 'technical', taking the two conditions that Jesus put forth in the Matthew passage, you must keep *all* of the commandments perfectly AND leave everything you have to follow Jesus. Now who can do this perfectly, Romanist ?

      <THX`>   likewise david.

      <david>   is there a real name behind the alias?

      <THX`>   most ppl call me doc.

              <--   Hobster has quit (Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is)

<CollarMan> Be right back...

<Romanist>  nobody os-but ive never said we can do it perfectly-just we should be making the greatest possible effort

      <OS_X>   how much is that Romanist ?

               ---   david is now known as davidreads

      <OS_X>   How much is enough to be declared just before God ?

<mon-lurx>   Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees....

<Romanist>  again im not saying any amount of work can satisfy god.

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt 5:28

      <THX`>   do ppl go on irl names in here then?

<Gutenberg> Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   oops. wrong verse.

      <OS_X>   ~nas Matt. 5:48

<Gutenberg> Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NASB)

<davidreads> lots of aliases but we mostly know each other's names

<davidreads> if you don't want to tell us then that's ok but I think it's more friendly

                 *   OS_X thinks everyone knows my real name, but still calls me X anyway...LOL

<SpideyGeek> Yes, Kerry :-)

      <THX`>   well, im chas. but everyone online calls me doc.

      <OS_X>   Thank you Jules :)

                 *   davidreads 's real name is THX but everyone calls him David :-)

<SpideyGeek> :-D

<SpideyGeek> LOL, david

      <THX`>   which i kinda like.

<davidreads> ok chas, look forward to hearing from you after you have a read.

      <OS_X>   I'll have to call Chas Chas. :) I'm too used to calling Doc Doc.

<DrOakXP>   :-)

<DrOakXP>   Why do folks call you doc, THX?  :-)

      <THX`>   cuz i am one.

<SpideyGeek> That's because he is THE Doc :-D

<DrOakXP>   Medical?

      <THX`>   yeah.

      <OS_X>   Kewl!

<davidreads> cool, I have this ulcer in my....

<SpideyGeek> lol

                 *   OS_X thought he was a sound technician at first....

  <Gobbler>   Hey, THX, I got this pain...;-)

<davidreads> he's got a pain now...

<SpideyGeek> There ya go... now you do ;-)

<davidreads> beat ya to it

  <Gobbler>   Now I REALLY ogt this pain.

<davidreads> :-)

<SpideyGeek> lol

<davidreads> too slow gobbler

<davidreads> way too slow

      <THX`>   well, x is right. i AM into sound.

      <THX`>   hence the nick.

<davidreads> ok, I'm off - be back later

      <OS_X>   kewl. :)

                 *   THX` is the most excellent cinema sound system from lucasfilm.

                 *   OS_X still chuckles at the mass de-opping....

  <Gobbler>   Gee, and here I thought you were just thankful...how naive I must be

      <THX`>   cuz im severely into movies. thats why.

                 *   OS_X loves to annoy neighbors by turning up both 200 watt subs when the movie starts on DVD and the THX sound comes on

      <OS_X>   Feel the room rumble!

<tiredofNJ>   Sound rocks. :)

      <THX`>   yes, but home thx is nothing like the real cinema thx.

      <OS_X>   THX - this is true.

<tiredofNJ>   I use Grados on my laptop.

<SpideyGeek> tired - How is that?

      <THX`>   which is why im against home systems. i watch everything at the cinema.

<SpideyGeek> Cakewalk is *tough*...

  <Gobbler>   CollarMan, you still here?

<tiredofNJ>   SG: You use Cakewalk?

      <OS_X>   LOl - we part ways there. I like the cinema, but I'm eventually going to have th e*perfect* system at home.

<SpideyGeek> tired - I'm playing with it... got a demo version I'm trying.

      <THX`>   nah, you cant recreate the acoustics of an auditorium at home.

      <OS_X>   cakewalk is for wussies. :) I use FINALE.

  <Gobbler>   An Eperfect system?

<tiredofNJ>   I had Cakewalk for a while, back in '99 ... I bought a MIDI keyboard and everything.

<SpideyGeek> Cakewalk FruityLoops 3, to be exact.

      <OS_X>   THX - you can if you have an auditorium built onto the side of your house. LOL

<Theophorus> 'Yeah, Cakewalk is just that once you get used to it.

<CollarMan> Had to go for a bit...back..

<Theophorus> I used to use the full version.

<tiredofNJ>   Ohh, FruityLoops.

<tiredofNJ>   My dad has Sonar on his.

      <THX`>   with 1200 seats and a full cinemascope screen?

<tiredofNJ>   But no keyboard ... he also can't play. *scratches head*

      <OS_X>   THX - if I had the money, I would.

      <THX`>   man, id love to have that.

<tiredofNJ>   I used it back when it was just MIDI only with SoundFonts and stuff.

<SpideyGeek> I need to find something else, though... Idon't have the time to figure FruityLoops out :-)

      <OS_X>   Romanist, you still there, ol buddy ?

<Theophorus> Yes, me too, tired.

<tiredofNJ>   lol, why does everyone compose sound?

<tiredofNJ>   I was into it after years of piano lessons and really getting into midi files for a while.

      <THX`>   i still remember the days when plain midi came out, with just the three sockets marked in/out/thru...

<Theophorus> Just midi, but I ventured into Cakewalk ProAudio.

      <THX`>   how things have changed now, with general midi 2 and shit like that.

               ---   SpideyGeek sets ban on THX`!*courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net

              <--   SpideyGeek has kicked THX` from #prosapologian (Profanity is for those who lack the intelligence to express themselves by any other means.)

               ---   SpideyGeek removes ban on THX`!*courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net

<Theophorus> My computer wasn't fast enough to sync the audio data.

<SpideyGeek> Woops

<Theophorus> I could never get it synced.

              -->   THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #prosapologian

      <THX`>   wow. harsh bot.

<Theophorus> lol

      <OS_X>   ROFL

       <buzz>   lol

      <THX`>   harsh script. not bot.

<tiredofNJ>   Well, really, I think "He meant to say shirt" isn't gonna fly with that one. ;)

      <OS_X>   SpideyBorg...LOL

<SpideyGeek> Sorry, THX... just try to watch the language. ;-)

<DrOakXP>   My script.  This *is* a Christian channel.  :-)

      <THX`>   yeah, guess it is. sorry,

<DrOakXP>   :-)

      <OS_X>   We forgive ya.

<tiredofNJ>   How does General Midi 2 differ?

      <THX`>   so as i was saying... general midi 2 and shirt...

      <THX`>   all too fancy these days.

      <OS_X>   Just respect the channel :)

<tiredofNJ>   I haven't messed around with a soundcard since the SB Live.

<tiredofNJ>   Which was a good one in its own right.

      <THX`>   i still have my trusty roland juno 106.

<tiredofNJ>   Oh, wait, my dad had a Roland card at one point, it was a full-length one.

<tiredofNJ>   The thing was enormous.

      <THX`>   nah, having rack mounts is still not the same as having the actual keyboards.

<tiredofNJ>   My piano teacher had several Roland keyboards, starting with the one with the MT-100 external sequencer ...

<Romanist>  os yes-sorry to hound you-but what you just said-if i had the money i would. i have the same thought with many things. but shouldnt we forego luxuries to invest them in glorifying god? if i really saw christ in the hungry,naked, imprisoned etc. wouldnt i just want to live on the bare minimum and devote all resources and as much time as possible to charity? shouldnt i be YEARNING to sacrifice time, money, freedom, safety etc for the kingdom of God?

<tiredofNJ>   Moved up through the years, naturally.

<Romanist>  this i do not experience

<tiredofNJ>   That thing was a pain, proprietary datadisk format ... ew ...

      <THX`>   yeah. if he stuck with roland, he would have moved to the roland d50.

<tiredofNJ>   She stuck with them forever, yeah, dunno what she has now.

      <OS_X>   np romanist.  Nothing wrong with having luxuries. The problem comes when luxuries have YOU.

<tiredofNJ>   Eventually they had the drives built in ... last keyboard I used like that was a friend's Korg.

      <OS_X>   If the Lord so leads me to give above my tithe, then yes I will.

      <THX`>   yeah, i kinda lost touch after the 80s.

      <THX`>   dunno what happened to synthesis technology after that.

      <OS_X>   Some have been gifted with the gift of mercy - others have to learn. :)  Usually folks with the gift of mercy tend to have either a whole lot of money or not enough money (by our standards).

                 *   tiredofNJ breaks out his Casiotone MT-36.

      <THX`>   yamaha dx7 and roland d50 were the last keyboards i used.

      <OS_X>   But God provides for them to do what He calls them to do.

      <OS_X>   Pat Robertson, despite some of his horrid theology, has utilized the money he gets to feed the poor and provide aid for folks in Africa in impoverished nations.

<Romanist>  yes and i could use the money i spent on say a computer to go feed a homeless man i walk by every day for a month

<Romanist>  but i dont

      <OS_X>   A family I heard on Focus on the Family last night, was middle class, but they adopted SIX kids - AT LEAST - and one of them had heart issues that required over 100k in surgery.

<Romanist>  yes thats sacrifice os

      <OS_X>   But the Lord provided for them to have the surgery for free. :)

<Romanist>  which is the mark of a true christian

      <OS_X>   Let's retool your question.

<Theophorus> Don't others sacrifice?

      <THX`>   what about sibelius? any of you guys use that?

<Theophorus> Non-Christians sacrifice.

<Romanist>  theo-non christians? sure

      <OS_X>   I use Finale. Haven't played with Sibelius much.

      <OS_X>   <-----music teacher in a high school.

<Romanist>  one of the marks of a true christian i shoulda said

<Theophorus> Yes, but marks not exclusive to Christianity.

<Theophorus> Even the works of a Christian are riddled with sin and unbelief.

      <THX`>   so you teach music huh?

      <OS_X>   The money I could spend on a computer because the Lord is calling me to do online evangelism and expand a ministry He has put on my heart vs taking that money feeding a homeless man. I feel convinced the Lord has called me to do the first, not the second. Am I not a true Christian ?

      <OS_X>   Yep. B.S. is in Music Ed.

<Theophorus> LOL

<Theophorus> I love that "B.S."

      <THX`>   i used to play for sinfonia medica, the combined london medical schools orchestra.

<Theophorus> LOL

<Romanist>  certainly os-i meant the computer as a secular tool

      <OS_X>   addendum - I feel convinced after prayer and talking with other believers - AND the fact that i'd been praying for a new computer because my old one is ancient and limits me.

      <Keith>   I have no musical ability

      <THX`>   hey, if god gives you a new puter, can you get him to give me one too?

      <OS_X>   Bachelor of Science. LOL

      <THX`>   i need another box for my lan.

      <OS_X>   Anyone got a spare router lying around ? :)

<DrOakXP>   []__[]__[]__ Good Evening, Keith ! __[]__[]__[]

      <THX`>   i have a router, but not spare... am using it right now!

      <Keith>   Hi DrO

                 *   DrOakXP teaches Keith to use COLOR

<DrOakXP>   ()()()()()()()()()  COLOR IS GOOD. ()()()()()()()()()

      <Keith>   computer network router, or wood router?(not that I have either one)

<DrOakXP>   ()()()  Keith wears pajamas to work. ()()()

      <Keith>   ??

      <Keith>   ??

      <OS_X>   Okay Romanist - the Lord blesses me with some funds and I take them to build a home theatre for my family so that my wife and kids will be blessed (no I"m not married yet!) and enjoy themselves.

      <Keith>   (())

      <THX`>   adsl router.

<SpideyGeek> ()()()  CRISP MEAT BURRITOS! ()()()

      <OS_X>   Does this not make me a Christian ?

      <Keith>   something about green burritos seems fitting

      <OS_X>   or rather, does this demarcate me as not being a Christian ?

                 *   OS_X needs to head to sleep soon.

<Romanist>  why dont you take your family to a day laborer parking lot and feed them with those funds while spreading the gospel

<Romanist>  wouldnt that be more glorifying to god?

<SpideyGeek> "¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼Èt7DS  Keith , congrats on being our 5000th visitor! You will recieve an all expense paid trip to Upper Slobovia !!  t7DS"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼¼È"¼

<DrOakXP>   Why doesn't the Pope sell his gold and jewels and do the same thing, Romanist? 

<DrOakXP>   :-)

<Romanist>  indeed dro

<Romanist>  absolutely indeed

      <Keith>   I will enjoy that, as I am a slob

      <OS_X>   What if my family doesn' t feel called to go there nor do I feel called to take them there yet, as the spiritual head of my household ?

      <OS_X>   What if I feel that our calling is elsewhere in another ministry ?

      <THX`>   my calling is the kitchen. i need food.

      <THX`>   been interesting talking to you lot.

<Romanist>  and you dont think somewhere/sometime those funds would be better served in another capacity in glorifying god rather than building a home theater system?

      <OS_X>   Where does it say that I can't have nice things for my family with the money that the Lord has blessed me with a job to earn, is gracious enough to allow me to keep 90 % (50% after taxes) ?

<SpideyGeek> Have a good evening, THX`

      <THX`>   have many interests in common.

      <THX`>   like cinema and electronic music.

<SpideyGeek> :-)

      <OS_X>   Evenin' THX. Drop back through again. :)

      <THX`>   and a fellow doctor here too.

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 19:27

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)

<Romanist>  sacrifice is the issue

      <OS_X>   Or what rule is there that says I can't take that money and as a show of affection to my wife, buy her a $5k diamond ring ?

      <THX`>   whats your specialty dr o?

<DrOakXP>   Theology.  :-)

      <THX`>   ok.

      <Keith>   I think I'm getting the hang of this

      <THX`>   well, as arnie says... ill be back.

<Theophorus> So sacrifice is necessary to receive forgiveness, Romanist?

                 *   THX` out. getting food.

<mon-lurx>   Prove it, Keith

              <--   THX` (~courgette@client-53-p1-sms.winn.adsl.virgin.net) has left #prosapologian

<Romanist>  no but its a one of the good signs of election

      <Keith>   Prove what?

      <Keith>   :)

              -->   J637 (~John@host-66-81-123-193.rev.o1.com) has joined #prosapologian

<DrOakXP>   ()()()  Newbies are so cute. ()()()

<mon-lurx>   ooooooooooo

<Theophorus> Wow, you sound like a puritan, Romanist.

<Theophorus> ;-)

      <Keith>   I'm not a newbie, just an ignorantbie

      <OS_X>   Is it ? Where ?

      <OS_X>   ~nas Hosea 6:7

<Gutenberg> Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me. (NASB)

<Theophorus> :-)

<Romanist>  i need to read some of the puritans. they dont wishy-wash stuff

      <OS_X>   last I checked, our good works didn't amount for much.

      <OS_X>   ~nas Is 64:6

<Gutenberg>   OS_X: Sorry, I don't understand your request.

       <J637>   Theo are you related to cowpoke

               ---   Gutenberg removes ban on *!*@195.14.143.79

                 *   DrOakXP screams as he realizes he has an entire set of papers he forgot all about.

                 *   DrOakXP sighs.

      <OS_X>   ~nas isaiah 64:6

<Theophorus> J6

<Theophorus> No.

<Gutenberg> Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (NASB)

<Theophorus> LOL

<Theophorus> He wishes.

      <Keith>   DrO, want us to help you grade them?

      <Keith>   LOL, we will grade them on the relativistic scale.

<DrOakXP>   Yeah, that would be fun.

      <Keith>   whatever grade you want, just put it on the front

<Romanist>  okay so you think god might rather  you spend 5k on a ring than use it to help the homeless or sick or lonely or jailed or spread His Word etc

       <J637>   Well cowpoet has a brother with a web site called theocentric

       <buzz>   DrOakXP - Just sent ya an E-mail.

      <OS_X>   I didn't say that. You did.

<DrOakXP>   OK.

<tiredofNJ>   I give this paper a 65 because the other side has a good case too.

      <OS_X>   You're presenting a false dichotomy.

      <OS_X>   Two options when there's actually three or more options.

    <kletois>   DrO! you survived your 'upgrade' to XP!! (congratulations?)

                 *   buzz already had XP.

<DrOakXP>   Yes, I did, kletois.

<DrOakXP>   Not without a few hiccups, but all taken care of.

      <OS_X>   That be the case, why don't you take your computer and donate it to a local school ?  Wouldn't that be more glorifying to God ?

      <OS_X>   Than say.... keeping it at home and using it for your own personal entertainment ?

<Theophorus> J6: No, I'm not the guy.

<Theophorus> :-)

<Theophorus> XP is great.

      <OS_X>   Do you really need it ? What's wrong with a typewriter ? Isn't there some poor school system or kid in the ghetto that wishes he had a computer ?

       <J637>   ok

              -->   MfiboLrx^ (Mfibo_@1Cust185.tnt1.covington.la.da.uu.net) has joined #prosapologian

<Romanist>  os exactly

<Romanist>  thats precisely what i should do

               ---   Received a CTCP Sound jambali.mid from DrOakXP

                 *   OS_X notes that if Romanist suddenly doesn't show up anymore, we know why.

<Romanist>  but i wont

<Romanist>  lol

      <OS_X>   Why not ?

                 *   MfiboLrx^ does a jig dance

      <OS_X>   Fibbster!

<MfiboLrx^> Good evening /morning :)

<SpideyGeek> Mfibbinatorus Maximus!

<Romanist>  because im a slave to my own wants and desires

      <OS_X>   too easy.

<MfiboLrx^> I'm one step closer now to my laptop replacement :)

                 *   MfiboLrx^ takes up donations

<MfiboLrx^> <g>

                 *   OS_X throws penny @ MfiboLrx^

<Romanist>  i could give this away and go the library to continue withh all my net/work activities. i dont because i enjoy the convenience and privacy

<MfiboLrx^> merci

<Theophorus> Fibo

<MfiboLrx^> yo Theo bro :)

               ---   dhRehearse is now known as dharp

      <OS_X>   Desires for things for entertainment and personal satisfaction aren't bad, Romanist.  In the book of Acts, we don't find Lydia giving up her business and travelling with Paul and company.

       <buzz>   Oh brother,  when Christ said that a man must deny himself daily, He wasn't talking about material possessions.  Sheesh

      <OS_X>   But she *does* use the luxury of having a big house to have believers meet there on occasion.

<Romanist>  buzz what did peter mean when he said this?

<mon-lurx>   buzz :)

<Romanist>  ~nas Mat. 19:27

<Gutenberg> Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?" (NASB)

      <OS_X>   I'm sure she also *enjoyed* having her nice big house and the money she earned from work.

                 *   Keith wonders about owning two cars

              <--   Shade has quit (:-D)

                 *   DrOakXP notes his eyes are starting to get fuzzy....

                 *   DrOakXP tries to shave them.

               ---   dharp is now known as dhLurx

                 *   OS_X 's eyes are already dropping.

<DrOakXP>   Too much small print.  Ack.

      <OS_X>   DOES THIS HELP ?

      <Keith>   better than fuzzy teeth

                 *   DrOakXP bites Keith.

<SpideyGeek> Here we go...

<Romanist>  os right so any possession i have i should do my best to use it to glorify god. this could be by giving it away but also by keeping it and using it in some other manner

<SpideyGeek> Does this help?

      <Keith>   I wasn't refrring to anyone specific

<DrOakXP>   No, since I default to bold, so those are non-bold.  :-)

      <OS_X>   Hmmm. I think he's getting it a bit.

<SpideyGeek> OH!

<SpideyGeek> lol

                 *   DrOakXP bites Keith for being dishonest.

<Romanist>  but i wasnt debating that

              <--   J637 has quit ()

      <Keith>   moi? dishonest?

      <OS_X>   But even past all that, we come back to the fundamental question regarding your good works Romanist.

      <OS_X>   You agree that no amount of good works can save or keep you saved.

       <buzz>   Romanist - Umm, Job was wealthy, had lots of possession, a large family, yet God called him blameless.  There's nothing wrong with having possessions.

      <OS_X>   yet you worry about not doing enough of them so there is 'evidence' that you are elect

<Romanist>  where is the balance between enjoyment and sacrifice

<SpideyGeek> ... Or at least get hairy teeth....

      <OS_X>   Romanist - read what buzz just wrote.

       <buzz>   Depriving oneself of things and living in a monestary never saved anyone.

<Theophorus> Amen, buzz.

      <OS_X>   and read again what Buzz just wrote.

<Romanist>  this is true buzz

       <buzz>   It's one thing to have possessions, it's quite another to live to get them.

      <OS_X>   Sometimes the Lord blesses folks with a new computer @ home so they can get their work done.

      <OS_X>   *shock*

      <OS_X>   and earn money to take care of their family.

      <OS_X>   God is glorified in the fact that the person acknowledges and realizes that the computer is a blessing from God and that it helps to provide for his 'daily bread' to take care of himself and his family.

       <buzz>   Oh, and there's nothing wrong with personal entertainment.  Living a joyless life goes against Scripture.

      <OS_X>   Now when that computer starts to become a 'god' (i.e.- daddy yells at the kids 'STAY AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!'), then we have problems.

      <Keith>   goodnight everyone

              <--   Keith (Keith@ip68-109-129-91.ph.ph.cox.net) has left #prosapologian

      <OS_X>   When the computer becomes more important than people, something's wrong.

<Romanist>  certainly os

      <OS_X>   Likewise, a husband spending that 5k on a ring for his wife is fully justified in doing so.

              <--   sam (~samnj@67.85.165.116) has left #prosapologian

      <OS_X>   He's doing so to follow the commandment of scripture and HONOR HIS WIFE.

      <OS_X>   While he can never show her the full gift of what she is worth to him, this can serve as a visible reminder and when she looks at her hand, it brings her joy and reminds her of the love of her husband.

      <OS_X>   Completely Biblical.

<MfiboLrx^> 5K?

<MfiboLrx^> hmmmmmmmmm

      <OS_X>   Rough figure.

<mon-lurx>   Preach it Brother OS

<mon-lurx>   hehehe

      <OS_X>   LOL @ Mon.

      <OS_X>   Be nice to Theo.

                 *   mon-lurx notes that on the other hand it is not good for a wife to covet such an object and that she was merely joking

<mon-lurx>   hehe

      <OS_X>   :)

                 *   buzz looks at that small puny thing on mon's finger.

<mon-lurx>   HEY!

      <OS_X>   ROFL

       <buzz>   lol

                 *   mon-lurx looks at her ring with great admiration :)

<StJohnCalv> mon-lurx

<StJohnCalv> MicahSlayso

<StJohnCalv> mon-lurx

<mon-lurx>   SJC!

      <OS_X>   So 'sacrifice' and monasticism really don't amount to much, truth be told. They have an APPEARANCE of godliness.

                 *   Gobbler goes to check up on his wife and heads out...night all!

<Romanist>  you dont consider sacrifice an essential part of the christian life?

<CollarMan> ?

        <buzz>   OS_X - Yes, and Paul had some comments on that too.

      <OS_X>   But even past all that, we come back to the fundamental question regarding your good works Romanist.

<mon-lurx>   Nite, Gobb!  Hugs to Koiny

              <--   CollarMan has quit (Leaving)

<MfiboLrx^> ~nas Col 2:20-23

  <Gobbler>   :-)

       <buzz>   gn Gobb

              <--   Gobbler has quit ()

<Gutenberg> Col. 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Col. 2:21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Col. 2:22 (which all [refer] [to] things destined to perish with use)-- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Col. 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, [but are] of no value against fleshly indulgence. (NASB)

<MfiboLrx^> Amen :)

<Romanist>  scripture commends fasting

      <OS_X>   If no amount of good works can save or keep you saved, then you are inconsistently relying on your good works as evidence of your election and then trying to increase them by engaging in monastic behavior.

              <--   Bradford (VanTil@ACC15F16.ipt.aol.com) has left #prosapologian

       <buzz>   Romanist - Fasting in private.

<Theophorus> Amen is right.

<Theophorus> Depriving the body of fine brew.

<Romanist>  buzz yes of course. modesty and humility are other signs of a christian

<Theophorus> Evil.

       <buzz>   Romanist - Modesty and humility have nothing to do with riches.

      <OS_X>   So again, what is the ground of your justification before God ? Christ's shed blood alone apart from works or Christs' shed blood plus your good works ?

      <OS_X>   Duane Magnani of Witness, Inc. is a multimillionaire - a very quiet one. Very humble dude and easy to talk to.

<Romanist>  well weve come full circle. my answers the same as before

      <OS_X>   Stephen Speilberg dresses very modestly - more like he earns 35k per year than his actual worth.

      <OS_X>   Is Speilberg a professing Christian in any way ?

        <buzz>   OS_X - Nope

<Romanist>  os you know i didnt say it was the exclusive marks of a christian

<Romanist>  i was referring to buzz's comment on fasting

      <OS_X>   See, you can only trust fruit as far as the tree it comes off of.

       <buzz>   Romanist - Jesus said to fast in private, not in public.

      <OS_X>   There's plenty of folks in the visible church who believe in Christ + My works = Salvation who think that their good works are evidence of their salvation.

       <buzz>   And fasting has nothing to do with humility nor modesty.

<Romanist>  buzz right i agree. somebody who does it publicly to show off or what have you is of course in error

      <OS_X>   ~nas matt. 6:16-18

<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:16 "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites [do], for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face (NASB)

<Gutenberg> Matthew 6:18 so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees [what is done] in secret will reward you. (NASB)

      <OS_X>   See, you can only trust fruit as far as the tree it comes off of.

      <OS_X>   There's plenty of folks in the visible church who believe in Christ + My works = Salvation who think that their good works are evidence of their salvation.

<Romanist>  well theyre wrong

      <OS_X>   And while the fruit of both trees *looks* similar, upon closer inspection you find that the other is riddled with fruitflies and maggots.

               ---   amylooz is now known as AmySnooze

      <OS_X>   So out of faith alone in Christ alone   or faith in Christ + good works, you're picking faith alone ? ?(that is, faith apart from works)

      <OS_X>   Just trying to be clear.

                 *   OS_X has to be up in 4.5 hours.

                 *   kletois merely says goodnite to amy, and isnt trying to start a conversation with her.

<AmySnooze> goodnite everyone

      <OS_X>   brb...getting water to drink....

      <OS_X>   G'nite Amy.

<SpideyGeek> Niters, Amy! *muah*

       <buzz>   gn amy

    <kletois>   nite amy

  <Romanist>   os-i have been considering/leaning to the reformed understanding of salvation for a few months now-thats why ive not attended mass. but im still examining/reflecting on the matter. and with that ive got to get to bed. i appreciate this conversation os_x (and others who chimed in). it was very worthwhile. ill dwell on it and maybe well pick up on it later. sorry to keep you up os_x. cheers all.

              <--   Romanist has quit ()

<SpideyGeek> Lord, draw Romanist to your Truth and your Gospel, if be your will...

       <buzz>   Amen

      <OS_X>   that was SOOOOOO kewl. Amen. Thanks Lord.

      <OS_X>   I love having the opportunity to serve. :)

<SpideyGeek> :-)

                 *   OS_X saves this as a log.

              <--   hedgey78aw has quit (Read error to hedgey78aw[208.198.12.57]: Connection reset by peer)

       <buzz>   We just remember that it is God who controls even evangelism. =)

<MfiboLrx^> ... and some said we will hear you again on this matter :)

                 *   AmySnooze has just this very minute stumbled in and guesses much grace has been shown here tonite.. good job guys!